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Old 08-25-2023, 06:08 PM   #21
Keyboardstalker
 
Join Date: Aug 2023
Default Re: NFM character using guns mounted to their body

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
See B385 and B392. Front mounted weapons csn shoot into any of the "front" hexsides (and front DR protects against attacks through any of those hexsides), etc.
Ah, I see. Would that mean they’d still be able to shoot into any hex within their arc of vision? Because that wouldn’t make much sense without physically turning their body.
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Old 08-25-2023, 06:27 PM   #22
Anthony
 
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Default Re: NFM character using guns mounted to their body

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Are you stating the characters would have to purchase the Weapon Mount Advantage (well, Extra Arm (Weapon Mount), anyway) in order to make use of the harness that is meant to basically give them that trait?
I missed some details of the OP, but honestly, unless the mount has additional hardware such as a HUD with eye tracking software... yes, you would need an additional trait to be able to actually aim a mounted weapon, you are not going to achieve usable levels of accuracy if your only method of aiming is rotating your body.

If the mount does include a HUD or similar, it will have an arc of fire appropriate to the mounting apparatus, which may well be 120 degrees or larger.
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Old 08-25-2023, 08:45 PM   #23
sir_pudding
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Default Re: NFM character using guns mounted to their body

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Originally Posted by Keyboardstalker View Post
Ah, I see. Would that mean they’d still be able to shoot into any hex within their arc of vision? Because that wouldn’t make much sense without physically turning their body.
Well yeah for 1 hex things fixed mounts aren't especially bad.
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Old 08-26-2023, 10:05 AM   #24
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Default Re: NFM character using guns mounted to their body

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
I missed some details of the OP, but honestly, unless the mount has additional hardware such as a HUD with eye tracking software... yes, you would need an additional trait to be able to actually aim a mounted weapon, you are not going to achieve usable levels of accuracy if your only method of aiming is rotating your body.
Doesn't aimed rifle shooting typically involve bracing your rifle against your shoulder with a consistent stance, and then changing your aimpoint by rotating your torso rather than by moving your arms around? I mean, I don't think a quadruped using one of these mounts is going to have quite the same maneuverability, but I think they should be able to manage some decent accuracy. Of course, there's also the question of how realistic and how cinematic the campaign is meant to be - it sounds like it's based on or at least inspired by a rather-cinematic setting, and in that situation a quadruped with a fixed-mount harness being every bit as effective as a biped with a rifle fits just fine.
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Old 08-26-2023, 11:13 AM   #25
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Default Re: NFM character using guns mounted to their body

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Doesn't aimed rifle shooting typically involve bracing your rifle against your shoulder with a consistent stance, and then changing your aimpoint by rotating your torso rather than by moving your arms around?
You would manage gross change of direction by adjusting the torso, but all fine corrections are done with the arms and hands.
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Old 08-26-2023, 11:30 AM   #26
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: NFM character using guns mounted to their body

I'd actually say the mouth-pistols aren't that ridiculous a concept? Actually, they might be the most accurate weapons you could use without some fancy tech.

Certainly you'd ditch the hand-oriented design of pistols as we know them, but a sort of tooth-guard shaped grip and a tongue-actuated trigger seems possible, and because the gun is actually forward of your eyes you could even conceivably have sights on it! Though getting sights to reach from the mouth-gripped weapon to eye level might be problematic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
I missed some details of the OP, but honestly, unless the mount has additional hardware such as a HUD with eye tracking software... yes, you would need an additional trait to be able to actually aim a mounted weapon, you are not going to achieve usable levels of accuracy if your only method of aiming is rotating your body.

If the mount does include a HUD or similar, it will have an arc of fire appropriate to the mounting apparatus, which may well be 120 degrees or larger.
Aircraft deal with shooting using non-flexible guns successfully, so demonstrably it is not impossible to do.

But you'd probably favor rapid-fire weapons. I'd certainly say that without a HUD of some kind you can't Aim. (Using HUD broadly enough to include, for instance, gunsights on a hand-held weapon.)
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Old 08-26-2023, 12:40 PM   #27
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Default Re: NFM character using guns mounted to their body

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
. . . a sort of tooth-guard shaped grip and a tongue-actuated trigger seems possible
Depends how well your teeth are attached. I doubt human teeth would take much of this without loosening.
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Old 08-26-2023, 01:08 PM   #28
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Default Re: NFM character using guns mounted to their body

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
You would manage gross change of direction by adjusting the torso, but all fine corrections are done with the arms and hands.
Fair enough. At normal GURPS resolution, I'd be more inclined to have that give reduced Acc rather than have it make Aim impossible, at least so long as you still have some sort of sights. If using the Douglas Cole article named either "Take Aim" or "On Target" (I will never be able to remember which one is the name), where Aiming calls for a roll, you'd have full Acc but a penalty to the Aim roll.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I'd actually say the mouth-pistols aren't that ridiculous a concept? Actually, they might be the most accurate weapons you could use without some fancy tech.

Certainly you'd ditch the hand-oriented design of pistols as we know them, but a sort of tooth-guard shaped grip and a tongue-actuated trigger seems possible, and because the gun is actually forward of your eyes you could even conceivably have sights on it! Though getting sights to reach from the mouth-gripped weapon to eye level might be problematic.
My thoughts here are that the teeth are the only thing you can actually use to grip the pistol, meaning its recoil is basically going to be going straight into the teeth, and also that having it far enough back in the mouth for a good grip with said teeth is going to pretty much place it right up against the tongue, making negligent discharges highly-likely. There's also the problem that you are going to, by necessity, be ejecting hot brass right in front of your face. If the quadrupeds have long snouts like most dogs, maybe something that has an extended mouthguard (in a U-shape, so it's only wrapping around the teeth and not filling the rest of the mouth, leaving the tongue free to activate the trigger without leaving it dangerously-close to doing so accidentally), with the bits that grip the teeth having a good deal of give to them (so the recoil isn't going right into the teeth and likely knocking them out of place* when used for anything other than rather low-power cartridges) and perhaps a part that extends over the lips to brace against the face (sort-of like on a pacifer), that might be workable. You'll also probably need the breech well forward of the mouthguard so there's some distance between your face and the hot brass. Still feels a bit silly, but maybe it's workable, particularly in a sufficiently-cinematic setting. I'd probably have such weapons have -1 Bulk compared to normal pistols (they functionally have something akin to a pistol brace installed on them), and probably have them apply a further -1 to Holdout (the long mouthguard normally doesn't add to Bulk because it's inside your mouth, but when it's out of your mouth it would). You may be able to holster it at your shoulder or on your chest, with the mouthguard sticking out (you'd need to nudge whatever is covering it to the side first if you have it concealed) for you to bite into and draw it.

*I think canids normally have their teeth much better-attached to the rest of them than do humans, given the way they often feed in the wild and how dogs love to play pulling games with rope and the like. But even so, I wouldn't expect them to hold up very well to recoil without some means of softening the blow. Assuming the quadrupeds are similar, of course.
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Old 08-26-2023, 01:43 PM   #29
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Default Re: NFM character using guns mounted to their body

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Doesn't aimed rifle shooting typically involve bracing your rifle against your shoulder with a consistent stance, and then changing your aimpoint by rotating your torso rather than by moving your arms around? I mean, I don't think a quadruped using one of these mounts is going to have quite the same maneuverability, but I think they should be able to manage some decent accuracy. Of course, there's also the question of how realistic and how cinematic the campaign is meant to be - it sounds like it's based on or at least inspired by a rather-cinematic setting, and in that situation a quadruped with a fixed-mount harness being every bit as effective as a biped with a rifle fits just fine.
Obviously it’s always going to be at least a bit cinematic no matter what. I’m fine with that since it fits the setting.
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Old 08-26-2023, 01:46 PM   #30
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: NFM character using guns mounted to their body

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Fair enough. At normal GURPS resolution, I'd be more inclined to have that give reduced Acc rather than have it make Aim impossible, at least so long as you still have some sort of sights. If using the Douglas Cole article named either "Take Aim" or "On Target" (I will never be able to remember which one is the name), where Aiming calls for a roll, you'd have full Acc but a penalty to the Aim roll.
Considering you can aim a cannon on a carriage, yes, if you've got sights somehow it seems obvious that you can aim a gun hard-mounted to your shoulder or wherever, if with much more difficulty than when aiming with a precision manipulator.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
My thoughts here are that the teeth are the only thing you can actually use to grip the pistol, meaning its recoil is basically going to be going straight into the teeth, and also that having it far enough back in the mouth for a good grip with said teeth is going to pretty much place it right up against the tongue, making negligent discharges highly-likely. There's also the problem that you are going to, by necessity, be ejecting hot brass right in front of your face. If the quadrupeds have long snouts like most dogs, maybe something that has an extended mouthguard (in a U-shape, so it's only wrapping around the teeth and not filling the rest of the mouth, leaving the tongue free to activate the trigger without leaving it dangerously-close to doing so accidentally), with the bits that grip the teeth having a good deal of give to them (so the recoil isn't going right into the teeth and likely knocking them out of place* when used for anything other than rather low-power cartridges) and perhaps a part that extends over the lips to brace against the face (sort-of like on a pacifer), that might be workable. You'll also probably need the breech well forward of the mouthguard so there's some distance between your face and the hot brass. Still feels a bit silly, but maybe it's workable, particularly in a sufficiently-cinematic setting. I'd probably have such weapons have -1 Bulk compared to normal pistols (they functionally have something akin to a pistol brace installed on them), and probably have them apply a further -1 to Holdout (the long mouthguard normally doesn't add to Bulk because it's inside your mouth, but when it's out of your mouth it would). You may be able to holster it at your shoulder or on your chest, with the mouthguard sticking out (you'd need to nudge whatever is covering it to the side first if you have it concealed) for you to bite into and draw it.

*I think canids normally have their teeth much better-attached to the rest of them than do humans, given the way they often feed in the wild and how dogs love to play pulling games with rope and the like. But even so, I wouldn't expect them to hold up very well to recoil without some means of softening the blow. Assuming the quadrupeds are similar, of course.
I don't think it's cinematic so much as solving a hard problem (having a 'handheld' weapon when the most handlike thing you have is your mouth) the best way available. It's not great, but it's still best in class for lack of competition.

You can place the trigger wherever you want it, there's no reason you need to put it in a place you can't avoid actuating. If you put the trigger near the front of the mouth actuated by pulling towards the back, I think it wouldn't be any easier to do by accident than the human style. It's certainly much better than a trigger actuated by biting down as per the OP!

There are a number of ways to go at shock mitigation (I'd suggest cushioning material and having much of the force go to the gums rather than teeth) but depending on your dentition it definitely is a likely literal pain point. You're also firing even closer to your ears than human shooters, which won't be fun.
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