Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-03-2021, 11:30 AM   #11
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: Finer granularity for small calibers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
The best options seem to be a Colt Government, with ammunition readily available in the Americas, but patchy in much of the rest of the world, or a Luger P08, if you can get it gunsmithed to raise its reliability.
Late in the 30s there is also the Browning HP. Most of these are harder to conceal than the vest-pocket pistols and carry less shots than some big .32 pistols.

Today the world is flooded with cartridges in NATO and Russian military calibres, pistols that can take stronger rounds are widely available, ownership of cheap small-calibre handguns is often restricted, and gun culture stresses MAWR POWR.
__________________
"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper

This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature

Last edited by Polydamas; 05-03-2021 at 11:33 AM.
Polydamas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2021, 01:26 PM   #12
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: Finer granularity for small calibers?

Also, if you check the period civilian arsenals in Hans-Christian Vortisch' blog, you see that the US people who frequently used firearms against other humans carried the kinds of guns that the GURPS rules reward https://shootingdiceblog.wordpress.c...gangster-gats/ There are a lot of Colt Governments and Lugers, revolvers in .38, and long guns. The .32s and .25s and .22s made good backup and concealed guns.

In other places you might see more Mauser C96 or big revolvers.
__________________
"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper

This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature
Polydamas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2021, 04:44 PM   #13
Calvin
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Calgary
Default Re: Finer granularity for small calibers?

I am working on some macros for a VTT game and I would also like to have finer granularity for wound modifiers, but my focus is a little different. I'm concerned more about the breakpoints between wound modifiers, than the range in the middle.

Lets use Icelander's numbers for example, using a selection of autoloading pistols and assuming unarmoured targets.

Ruger Standard MK1 .22lr does 1d+1 with a 0.5 multiplier. This works out to 1 to 3.5 wounding, with an average of 2.25.

Lorcin L-25, .25 ACP does 1d with a 0.5 multiplier. This works out to 0.5 to 3 wounding with an average of 1.75.

Walther PPK, .32 ACP does 2d-1 with a 0.7 multiplier. This works out to 0.7 to 7.7 wounding, with an average of 3.5.

So among the concealable pistols, those you'd expect to cause more wounding already do so, due to their higher damage figures. It's not a huge amount more, but it feels about right.

On the other hand, the breakpoint between 9mm and .40 is almost the opposite problem. There's a sudden jump in wounding where there probably should be one. Most 9x19mm pistols do 2d+2 pi, while the .40 calibre pistols do the same or nearly the same damage (2d+2 or 2d+1) but make the jump to pi+, and so have 50% higher wounding.

What I'm trying to do, and admittedly this is really only reasonable on a VTT, is get a weapon specific wound multiplier based on projectile diameter and velocity. It even sorta works.

As for players picking large frame revolvers and bigger automatics over small vest pistols, that seems completely sensible. If you're expecting to use a pistol in a proper firefight you'll want something like a modern service pistol. The sort of thing you see in pulp guns, etc, are little pocket pistols. The sort of thing you carry every day, not the sort of thing you'd carry to a battlefield.
Calvin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2021, 04:53 PM   #14
The Colonel
 
The Colonel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Default Re: Finer granularity for small calibers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Makes sense. Most use of .32 pistols has been for deterrence or threatening applications (Civilian pocket pistols, officers' symbols of rank) where killing causes more difficulties than wounding.
IIRC - it might even have been from an Ian Hogg book - there was, in the interwar era at least, a distressing tendency for officer's pistols to be selected more for their effect on the fit of a dress uniform than on an human target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
Late in the 30s there is also the Browning HP. Most of these are harder to conceal than the vest-pocket pistols and carry less shots than some big .32 pistols.

Today the world is flooded with cartridges in NATO and Russian military calibres, pistols that can take stronger rounds are widely available, ownership of cheap small-calibre handguns is often restricted, and gun culture stresses MAWR POWR.
Weirdly, there are also places - mostly in Europe IIRC, where certain calibres of ammunition (presumably specific loadings) are considered "too good for civilians" and only permitted for government use.
The Colonel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2021, 05:22 PM   #15
Rupert
 
Rupert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
Default Re: Finer granularity for small calibers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
The best options seem to be a Colt Government, with ammunition readily available in the Americas, but patchy in much of the rest of the world, or a Luger P08, if you can get it gunsmithed to raise its reliability.
Yeah. From 1935 you might get a Browning High-Power. From 1931 a Walther PP in .380 ACP will also do pi damage. The other choices are all revolvers, and most of them aren't small either. A pocket .38 is probably the best bet for a compact pistol with decent damage.
__________________
Rupert Boleyn

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
Rupert is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2021, 05:27 PM   #16
Rupert
 
Rupert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
Default Re: Finer granularity for small calibers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
The 7.63 x 25mm Mauser round is the notable exception. At 3D-1 in Gurps the change takes it from (9.5) x (.5) round down to 4 to 6.65 round down to 6.
It's actually 2d+2 pi- from a pistol and 3d pi- from a SMG. Thus it needs at least a 0.67 (2/3rds) WM to average a major wound when used in a pistol. As it happens a x2/3 WM nicely mirrors the x3/2 WM of pi+.

It's actually the round I think is most poorly served by the breakpoints and the x0.5 WM of pi-.

The one thing that would possibly be affected by this change in a way that matters is the value of pi- Innate Attacks.
__________________
Rupert Boleyn

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."

Last edited by Rupert; 05-03-2021 at 05:31 PM.
Rupert is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2021, 07:06 PM   #17
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: Finer granularity for small calibers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
The one thing that would possibly be affected by this change in a way that matters is the value of pi- Innate Attacks.
If you're paying normal pi- price, it's 0.5 wounding modifier. If you want to allow buying WM 0.7, thr pricing is modway between pi- and pi.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2021, 07:09 PM   #18
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: Finer granularity for small calibers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin View Post
I am working on some macros for a VTT game and I would also like to have finer granularity for wound modifiers, but my focus is a little different. I'm concerned more about the breakpoints between wound modifiers, than the range in the middle.

Lets use Icelander's numbers for example, using a selection of autoloading pistols and assuming unarmoured targets.

Ruger Standard MK1 .22lr does 1d+1 with a 0.5 multiplier. This works out to 1 to 3.5 wounding, with an average of 2.25.

Lorcin L-25, .25 ACP does 1d with a 0.5 multiplier. This works out to 0.5 to 3 wounding with an average of 1.75.

Walther PPK, .32 ACP does 2d-1 with a 0.7 multiplier. This works out to 0.7 to 7.7 wounding, with an average of 3.5.

So among the concealable pistols, those you'd expect to cause more wounding already do so, due to their higher damage figures. It's not a huge amount more, but it feels about right.

On the other hand, the breakpoint between 9mm and .40 is almost the opposite problem. There's a sudden jump in wounding where there probably should be one. Most 9x19mm pistols do 2d+2 pi, while the .40 calibre pistols do the same or nearly the same damage (2d+2 or 2d+1) but make the jump to pi+, and so have 50% higher wounding.
If you're distinguishing between .25 ACP wounding, .32 ACP and .380 ACP, you also need to realize that ball ammo in .40 S&W is not pi+ for a x1.5 wounding modifier. Realistically, more like x1.2.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2021, 07:14 PM   #19
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: Finer granularity for small calibers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Colonel View Post
IIRC - it might even have been from an Ian Hogg book - there was, in the interwar era at least, a distressing tendency for officer's pistols to be selected more for their effect on the fit of a dress uniform than on an human target.

Weirdly, there are also places - mostly in Europe IIRC, where certain calibres of ammunition (presumably specific loadings) are considered "too good for civilians" and only permitted for government use.
could well be, I just know that in the old country they banned most .32 and .25 calibre handguns at some point.

By the last year of the war, Canadian army officers returning from combat were complaining that their Browning HPs were useless. But it would be a while before most armies were issuing officers with a light long gun like the US M1 carbine or a Colt M4 carbine.
__________________
"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper

This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature
Polydamas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2021, 08:43 PM   #20
Calvin
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Calgary
Default Re: Finer granularity for small calibers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
If you're distinguishing between .25 ACP wounding, .32 ACP and .380 ACP, you also need to realize that ball ammo in .40 S&W is not pi+ for a x1.5 wounding modifier. Realistically, more like x1.2.
Yeah, since it's VTT I am (in theory) taking damage and calibre and calculating wound multiplier on the fly. With the version I have now .40S&W comes out to 1.22 while different loadings of 9mm come out between 0.92 and 1.01. So you get a smooth scale all the way through from 0.5 (or less) all the way up to the monster hunter wounding modifiers like 2.5+
Calvin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
guns, wounding modifiers

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.