03-18-2021, 08:51 PM | #11 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
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Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue
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ITL 162: "Other effects – like potions and Aid spells – are cumulative with magic items, but only to the limit of 5. You could have a DX +3 ring, and have a +3 Aid spell cast on you – and both would help, but increasing your DX only to +5." Note that the ring is a pre-existing condition that limits the effect of the Aid spell.
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-HJC |
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03-18-2021, 11:00 PM | #12 | |
Join Date: May 2015
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Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue
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The original context of the Death Spell was Wizard the microgame, which still applies to wizardly duels and some other fights. Wizard combat is about managing remaining ST, and often a close wizard duel will come down to two wizards with just a few points left. In that context, a capable wizard (with IQ 16 and DX at least 12...) who is sure they have more remaining ST than their opponent, may welcome a spell that will kill a foe outright. (If you know a foe has lost 3 DX due to wounds, the spell only costs 1-3 points to kill someone, and if you have ST 4+, you know you won't be the one dying.) It'd also be good against a really tough enemy warrior who has armor but is heavily wounded. Your fighters might likely get slaughtered trying to finish him off, but you can kill him with one spell that can't be countered by anti-missile spells, nor by Stone/Iron/Diamond Flesh magic. And in a campaign, the Death Spell can become rather more powerful with the use of Aid ST & DX, powerstones, and now in Legacy, staff mana, you can boost your ST & DX and/or recharge your fatigue before casting the spell, making the range and safety of the spell rather greater than it would be if you don't bring in those boosts. Someone already mentioned the assassination use, as well. Again, because the effect is outright death, it's good that it's a risky and not easy spell to make conveniently useful. It'd be pretty grim if it were as easy to use as Sleep, for example. |
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03-19-2021, 08:25 AM | #13 |
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: New England
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Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue
Thanks, everyone, for your comments thus far.
There is a faction, perhaps a majority, who hold that ST boosted by aid allows one to cast spells with the Aided ST first, such that someone using only that ST will have their full natural ST left upon the expiration of Aid. But, they contend that it does not work like this for wounds; one with Aid-buffed ST could sustain more damage than they normally would be able to so long as the spell lasts, but those wounds would kill them upon Aid's expiration. What about fatigue? Let's say that someone whose ST is Aided by 5 is berserk, and, while the spell is on, they come out of berserking and suffer the requisite 2 fatigue, bringing them down to 1 ST. Aid then expires. Do they die, or is the fatigue, like ST used for spell casting, forgiven? |
03-19-2021, 09:24 AM | #14 | |
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
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Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue
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Your note about the ring is an inference that isn't altogether clear from the text. Could be so. I do think that Aid should be able to add a reasonable ST so that wizards can reasonably cast the difficult spell without an unwieldy entourage, but I don't think it's obvious from the text that this is the intended rule. |
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03-19-2021, 09:32 AM | #15 | |
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
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Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue
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The question is whether using Aid prior to Death Spell to kill a stronger opponent is too easy. At least that's one question. The real question is whether wounds and fatigue are treated differently when an Aid ST spell wears off. I do think I've been focusing on the Death Spell use too much, since this is a minor side effect of this more fundamental question. |
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03-19-2021, 09:49 AM | #16 | |
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
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Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue
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Suppose a character has five points of Aid cast on him and he suffers four fatigue and three wounds and we use my suggestion that the Aid effectively cancels both wounds and fatigue. How many wounds and fatigue does he have in the end? According to my suggestion, five points are wiped out. He could lose four fatigue and one wound, leaving two wound damage, or he could lose three wounds and two fatigue, leaving two fatigue damage (or something in-between). I'd prefer the harsher outcome, so he still has two wounds, but this is just me being mean-spirited and not a principled choice. I guess the most reasonable answer is that first-come, first-cancelled, so he loses fatigue if he suffered that first and wounds if not. This is, however, a complicated solution but Aid doesn't really come up in my games and this would be a rare situation. I will admit the answer for those who say wounds aren't wiped out at the end of an Aid spell have an easier time with this question. As for your question, I'd say that the folks on the other side really should say the fatigue loss is wiped out when the spell ends, for consistency's sake, and I don't see any particular reason they wouldn't want to say that but I suppose I might be mistaken. Given my suggestion above, since he suffered wounds before coming out of berserk, the wounds would get wiped out. I totally get the desire to make Aid less useful than my suggestion does and I think that treating wounds and fatigue differently isn't outlandish. I just think treating them the same is simpler in concept. I'm not settled on the issue, however. |
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03-20-2021, 04:28 PM | #17 | |
Join Date: May 2015
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Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue
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Fatigue isn't "forgiven" unless your GM doesn't care or it doesn't matter in the situation, but it rests off at 1 per 15 minutes. Two different examples that both match your description: Abe has ST 11, used 4 ST for spells, then got +5 ST from Aid, then took 9 damage, then lost 2 more fatigue from berserking, bringing them to 1 ST. Then the Aid wears off, and they collapse with ST 11, 9 damage, and 6 fatigue. 4 of the fatigue rests off in the next hour, bringing them to ST 0, and 15 minutes later they are awake but staggering at ST 1. 15 minutes' rest after that, they're ST 11 with 9 damage and no fatigue. Bub has ST 10, +5 ST from Aid, took 12 damage, lost 2 fatigue from berserking, bringing them to 1 ST. Then the Aid wears off, and they are now ST 11 with 13 damage and 2 fatigue, dying. In 30 minutes the fatigue wears off and they are at ST 11 with 13 damage, and will die unless they get their wound physicked (or healing potioned) for at least 2 points within another 30 minutes. (BTW, a related but separate issue: Whether fatigue can kill is probably yes RAW, but no has traditionally be a common house rule in original TFT. It also makes it easier to tell who's going to die or not - if wounds (not fatigue) is less than or equal to ST, they're not dying.) |
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03-20-2021, 06:59 PM | #18 | |
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
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Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue
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In each of the following cases, Wizard has ST 1 and receives 3 ST from an Aid spell. Please let me know if you agree. (1) Wizard casts 2 ST worth of spells. At the time the Aid wears off, he is at ST 1; the fatigue for spell casting came off the Aided ST. (2) Wizard takes 2 wounds. At the time Aid wears off, he is at ST -1. (3) Wizard ends a berserking session (ignore the implausibility of a berserk wizard) and so gains 2 fatigue. At the time Aid wears off, he is at ST -1. What I'm getting at here is that if I'm reading you right, you're treating fatigue from spellcasting different than fatigue from berserk. But maybe I'm misunderstanding. I don't think I'd use your house rule regarding death from fatigue. I think that using up fatigue in combat should be dangerous and if fatigue + wounds > ST, the guy's dying. |
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03-20-2021, 10:45 PM | #19 | ||
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: New England
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Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue
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03-20-2021, 11:09 PM | #20 | |||
Join Date: May 2015
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Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue
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I like the reading/reasoning that goes: ITL p. 9: Quote:
I think it fits really well with the very common pre-Legacy house rule that fatigue doesn't kill people, in which case it plays exactly like it used to (unless you rule you only have one hour to get back to 0+ ST). But it is simpler and certainly another at-least-as-valid reading that "just barely dead" / dying figures don't recover fatigue. |
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buffs, fatigue, magic, strength, wizards |
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