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Old 09-09-2016, 05:13 PM   #81
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 19: Incantation Magic

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Originally Posted by Diomedes View Post
I'm still not seeing it. "You don't take a -5 penalty as long as your subject is present or know exactly where he is." is how RPM works without Ritual Adept. Whereas the Invocational version, even with the UB, is "You can't cast at all unless your subject is present or you know exactly where he is."

What exactly does the "half-level" get you?
Because Incantation Magic assumes that you can't cast spells at all without the UB. We had a box explaining this, but it was taken out. It'll likely show up in Designer's Notes at some point. Basically, it's like an extra level of Ritual Adept (Connection) to allow a magical connection in the first place. Please note that comparing GURPS Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic and GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 19: Incantation Magic is an apples and oranges scenario: they are both fruits and taste sweet, but that's about it.
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Old 09-09-2016, 06:23 PM   #82
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 19: Incantation Magic

Bought, skimming. Thoughts as I go:

Initially, I thought a 15-point Unusual Background was a bit much: while it's not Magery 0, it doesn't appear to be more effective than Magery 0. But then I realized that we're actually dealing with three magic systems rolled into one: Incantation Magic, Infusion Magic, and Script Magic. And I could easily envision a magic user who can do only one or two of these things instead of all three, for 5 or 10 points instead of 15. I haven't yet gotten far enough to see if the magic system would need any hacks to accommodate such narrowly focused magic users.

Another thought is that Infusion Magic and/or Script Magic could possibly be ported over to Monster Hunters as a magic system for Sages; by dropping Incantations, you avoid stepping on the toes of MH's RPM practitioners; and both alchemy and magical writing strike me as appropriate flavors of magic for MH's Sages to practice.
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Old 09-10-2016, 02:07 AM   #83
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 19: Incantation Magic

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Initially, I thought a 15-point Unusual Background was a bit much: while it's not Magery 0, it doesn't appear to be more effective than Magery 0. But then I realized that we're actually dealing with three magic systems rolled into one: Incantation Magic, Infusion Magic, and Script Magic. And I could easily envision a magic user who can do only one or two of these things instead of all three, for 5 or 10 points instead of 15. I haven't yet gotten far enough to see if the magic system would need any hacks to accommodate such narrowly focused magic users.
That could be possible - but at about -20% for two of three and -40% for one of three. One of the reason's the UB costs so much is because it's assumed you're playing in the same world as a standard magic user. Notes on how to switch that up to make it "the" magic system will have to wait for the Designer's Notes - sorry.

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Another thought is that Infusion Magic and/or Script Magic could possibly be ported over to Monster Hunters as a magic system for Sages; by dropping Incantations, you avoid stepping on the toes of MH's RPM practitioners; and both alchemy and magical writing strike me as appropriate flavors of magic for MH's Sages to practice.
Cool.
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Old 09-10-2016, 03:32 AM   #84
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 19: Incantation Magic

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Reducing casting time has huge benefits. If your default casting time is 5 minutes, and adept takes that to five seconds, even if you never have to cast something in five seconds, you can now take a bunch of time penalty to get back to five minutes as a huge bonus to skill.
yes, that was my point. I realize why they are priced how they are, but they still feel cheap for the gain.
There is a possibility of a fantasy game starting soon, and I definitively will offer Incantation magic as a possibility, but I will have to watch this closely, knowing the players.

For 20 points of powerup (adept and field caster) , you get the ability to throw spells every 5 seconds (every seconds at -6)...
With just those 2 powerup added, an otherwise starting Incanter with incantation gift 6 and 5 level of a specific rote invocation can do 6D of direct damage at 50 yards every second at effective skill 16, and do so for hours, baring crit fail. (unless I missed something ?)
And he is not a one trick character by any means !
I haven't yet looked at sorcery closely, how does it compare ?

That said, I am very impressed at how the dependencies between the various spell casting limitation (incantation gift cap, time spent, skill ...) keep the system flexible and fast playing without crippling or unbalancing the incanter.

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Old 09-10-2016, 05:16 AM   #85
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 19: Incantation Magic

On the Sages thing, it's not just MH's Sages. An Artificer/Incanter could be kept thematic by limiting him to Infusions, and an Incanter/Scholar who's limited to Scripts would be a nice way to describe a DF Scribe.

I haven't gotten much further in reading than the last time I posted (darn RL and it's interruptions); but I'll get back to it as soon as I can.
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Old 09-10-2016, 08:21 AM   #86
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 19: Incantation Magic

I had a chance to finish reading the final PDF while I was offline being sick last night, and it looks very good :) I have no bias whatsoever about this subject (*cough cough blatant lies*)

Seriously, I've watched this develop from early in the process, and I love me the final product.
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Old 09-10-2016, 02:42 PM   #87
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 19: Incantation Magic

All done! :)

One concern about Infusions and Scripts: because you roll against the higher of Alchemy/Symbol Drawing and the Path skill, doesn't that effectively render Path skills effectively moot for someone who chooses to rely exclusively on Alchemy (Infusions) and/or Symbol Drawing (Scripts)? Put the minimum amount into Ritual Magic (Incantations) to qualify as the Path prerequisite, then operate the Paths off of their default and concentrate everything else into Alchemy (Infusions) if you intend to be an alchemist or Symbol Drawing (Scripts) if you intend to be a Scribe.

I'd be much more comfortable if the rules said that you roll against the lower of Alchemy (Infusions) and Path for creating infusions, and the lower of Symbol Drawing (Scripts) and Path for creating scripts. As an aside, it would make adjusting the rules for pure Mixologists or Scribes much easier: just replace Ritual Magic (Incantations) with either Alchemy (Infusions) or Symbol Drawing (Scripts) as the core skill off of which the Paths are based, and keep the Prepared Magic stuff unchanged.
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Old 09-10-2016, 03:48 PM   #88
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 19: Incantation Magic

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All done! :)

One concern about Infusions and Scripts: because you roll against the higher of Alchemy/Symbol Drawing and the Path skill, doesn't that effectively render Path skills effectively moot for someone who chooses to rely exclusively on Alchemy (Infusions) and/or Symbol Drawing (Scripts)? Put the minimum amount into Ritual Magic (Incantations) to qualify as the Path prerequisite, then operate the Paths off of their default and concentrate everything else into Alchemy (Infusions) if you intend to be an alchemist or Symbol Drawing (Scripts) if you intend to be a Scribe.
Well this does make Alchemist or Symbolist specialists much more viable.
I would have to see it in play but that might be more a desirable feature than broken.
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Old 09-10-2016, 04:28 PM   #89
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 19: Incantation Magic

My main problem with it is that it makes the Alchemist or Scribe equally good at everything, as long as he prepares in advance. Since Incantation Magic places so much emphasis on preparing in advance, that's not much of a restriction.
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Old 09-10-2016, 04:35 PM   #90
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 19: Incantation Magic

I made this comparison of RPM and Incantations today to better highlight the differences and drive home that they are similar but definitely different.
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