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Old 06-08-2008, 02:23 AM   #41
rosignol
 
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin
Case in point - Black Ops. Vampires in the setting are mindless killers. The cool factor has been totally destroyed for vampires.
Pulling BO Vampires out and plugging G:VtM vampires in is quite trivial (although giving the Black Ops resistance rolls on account of being TBA would be a good thing). Ditto using G:WtA for shapeshifters and G:Mage for the Lodge. I'd suggest mixing it up, though- use the 'stock' BO Vamps for ferals, or some kind of messed-up ghoul.

It's not like the Black Ops know all that much about what's out there, and messing with your player's expectations keeps them on their toes.
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Old 06-08-2008, 08:46 AM   #42
Caleban
 
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Default My problem with Yrth

This post could easily become a thread in itself, but I feel it has a place here in that it is one of the reasons I started this thread in the first place.

I have a serious dislike for Yrth 3E (I'm not sure if things are any better in 4E). One of my biggest complaints stems from religion.

Philosophy, mythology, and religion arise to provide answers to the unknowable. They have to constantly reinterpret themselves to remain relevant and to maintain internal consistency as knowledge expands to explain the previously unknown. The religions of Yrth don't do this.

Looking at the elder races. Fantasy 3E states that the elder races don't have a religion but rather more of a philosophy of honoring the eternal. What? They never tried to answer questions like:
Why there is existence rather than non-existence?
How did Yrth come into existence?
Where does magic/mana come from?
What is the role of magic/mana in creation?
What does the cosmos look like?
What are the stars and moons and what significance do they have?
Is there life elsewhere in the cosmos?
How did these views change after the banestorm?
Why do bad things happen to good people: aka Why are there Orcs?
If there is divine magic why don't the elder races have a divinity to worship?
If the eternal grants divine magic what is the nature of the eternal? Is it sentient?
If divine magic was introduced with humanity why haven't all the elder races converted in order to use divine magic?
ETC, ETC.

Earth religions in next post.

Last edited by Caleban; 06-08-2008 at 09:37 AM.
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Old 06-08-2008, 09:20 AM   #43
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

Earth religions would not fare well in Yrth with out major reformations. Just looking at Chrisitanity:

During the crusades Christian cosmology held a geocentric world view. After the banestorm believers are no longer on earth (ie the center of the universe). What theological explanation do they have for:
What happened to earth?
Where is Yrth in their cosmology?
Why would God send them there: aka why would God send the banestorm?
Why is God suddenly answering prayers through divine magic?
What does he want them to do with this new found power?
The bible doesn't cover Yrth or the various fantastic creatures and races in the creation stories so where did they come from and what does God want believers to do about them?
Why haven't the churches co-opted local traditions, mythologies, or philosophies in their attempts to proselytize their religion (eg the co-opting of Christmas trees).

The list could go on and on. Other earth religions would fare no better in explaining the implications of their new existence with out major revisions and reinterpretation.
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Old 06-08-2008, 09:21 AM   #44
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

Comment I'd make here is that the Elder Races aren't human, and so don't need the same answers deep down that humanity seems to.

As well, the only 'divine' magic seems to be the mystic abilites, not even a mainstream concept or ability within the human populations, but very small, strict, splinter groups. Most clerical casters on Yrth are mages trained by the Church.
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Old 06-08-2008, 09:35 AM   #45
Caleban
 
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

I don't have any problem with the elder races not having the same answers as humans but they don't have any answers at all! As for magery being the primary source of spell casting there is still no theological evolution of Yrth's church doctrine since being uprooted from earth. Religions don't just shrug when presented with new ideas. It took the Catholic chruch over 100 years after Galeleo's death to remove a ban on publishing works advocating heliocentrism. There is a butt load of new ideas that Yrth's church would have to address on a theological level and there is no evidence that it has happened in 3000+ years in Fantasy 3E.

Last edited by Caleban; 06-08-2008 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 06-08-2008, 11:28 AM   #46
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

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Originally Posted by trooper6
Ugh! Please no. If there is one thing I hate, hate, hate...it is when game companies advance timelines regularly through supplements.
I fail to understand your vehemence, here. If you don't like the changes made to a setting that way, what keeps you from just ignoring 'em?
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Old 06-08-2008, 11:36 AM   #47
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

I did over 10 years of Shadowrun, with both accessories, modules, and novels advancing the metaplot of the setting. I found it gave a bit of life to the setting outside the character's actions, and didn't really constrain their actions or goals. And if I didn't plan to use, or was totally against something canon, it would become disinformation.

You as GM only have to use what you want.
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Old 06-08-2008, 11:49 AM   #48
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleban
I don't have any problem with the elder races not having the same answers as humans but they don't have any answers at all! As for magery being the primary source of spell casting there is still no theological evolution of Yrth's church doctrine since being uprooted from earth. Religions don't just shrug when presented with new ideas. It took the Catholic chruch over 100 years after Galeleo's death to remove a ban on publishing works advocating heliocentrism. There is a butt load of new ideas that Yrth's church would have to address on a theological level and there is no evidence that it has happened in 3000+ years in Fantasy 3E.
Its not that they have no answers, but that they have no answers Humanity seems to see. This is a world where the Divine seems not to care enough to empower folks, and the Elders seem to understand that, and have stepped beyond organized religion. To philosophies built on other concepts.

There are only 1000 or so years of divergence, with a lot of influx from later banestorms, not 3000+. Divergence from Humanities POV was the Crusades.

The Church has adapted its doctrine, to absorb magic into itself, and regulate it politically. They had to, magic worked, and too many folks could use it. They then placed blinders on their congregations, and claim only Church mages are good mages, guild mages are almost good, and free mages are witches and need to be controlled or excised. Islam hasn't had as much to adapt, and so hasn't changed as much, as they had systems in place to honor wise men/ magi, and hold them within their religion.

Remember, it is possible that technology and science are more disruptive, and destructive, to Faith than magic. And that seems to hold true on Yrth, where the availability of magic, and control of magic and society, has stunted the technological advances we know. Realize, the science is there, steadily inbound by banestorm, but application as technology is suppressed.
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Old 06-08-2008, 11:49 AM   #49
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery
I fail to understand your vehemence, here. If you don't like the changes made to a setting that way, what keeps you from just ignoring 'em?
See my post #34 on why ignoring changes isn't always feasable, and see Agamemnos's post #35 for further reasons to dislike the canon changing business model.
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Old 06-08-2008, 12:07 PM   #50
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery
I fail to understand your vehemence, here. If you don't like the changes made to a setting that way, what keeps you from just ignoring 'em?
Subsequent supplements using the same setting will incorporate and play off the changes. Tweaking things for consistency with your setting is a huge amount of work.

Personally, I like it when a game company advances a setting's history. It adds to the verisimilitude when there are other heroic-level actors in a setting, and I like my PCs to be aware that things will happen without them instigating it.
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