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Old 08-11-2023, 05:02 AM   #261
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
I wonder if there are others you might have overlooked.
You both seem to be overlooking that Trading Points for Cash is intended to be something you can do in play to just find money, and also that Impulse Buys suggests that each point spent coould give 100% of campaign starting wealth worth of goods if you find the thing you need instead if fungible currency.
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Old 08-11-2023, 09:59 AM   #262
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

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You both seem to be overlooking that Trading Points for Cash is intended to be something you can do in play to just find money, and also that Impulse Buys suggests that each point spent coould give 100% of campaign starting wealth worth of goods if you find the thing you need instead if fungible currency.
I ignore Impulse Buys because trading character points for transient resources is inherently a bad idea (in a short campaign it tends to make you overpowered, in a long campaign it tends to leave you behind).
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Old 08-11-2023, 10:16 AM   #263
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

Did we establish if Independent Income can supply goods in kind and such things? - so that it can represent (at lower tech levels) some kind of estate with an ability to produce some basic goods, or support from a tribe who can likewise provide day to day maintenance. Which I guess could also apply in Cyberpunk if the character was supported by an Feral Urban tribe or Nomad Clan or something...
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Old 08-11-2023, 11:07 AM   #264
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Did we establish if Independent Income can supply goods in kind and such things? - so that it can represent (at lower tech levels) some kind of estate with an ability to produce some basic goods, or support from a tribe who can likewise provide day to day maintenance. Which I guess could also apply in Cyberpunk if the character was supported by an Feral Urban tribe or Nomad Clan or something...
A regular stipend of goods/gear seems more in keeping with Patron than Independent Income, but I'd have no issue using the latter (indeed, one can argue that a character who can readily create raw materials out of "nothing" - like an arachne PC producing spidersilk that can be used to make armor - should model that with Independent Income). Unless the good is readily fungible (precious metals/gems, ammunition in an AtE setting, etc) - in which case it functionally already is money - being limited to a specific allotment of goods (1 pound of Kevlar, a man-week of rations, and 30 rounds of 5.56 NATO, for example) would arguably be a Limitation, while having a large selection you can pick from ($200 worth of military gear/rations, say) is arguably an Enhancement (as you don't need to go to the hassle of sourcing the goods); you'd need to figure out some appropriate values for how much to limit/enhance it (and how much of a selection is appropriate for the +0% level).
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Old 08-11-2023, 11:44 AM   #265
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

I would say that II being provided 'in kind' is neutral to small limitation unless it's giving you better access than you'd get by simply taking the money and going out and buying stuff.
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Old 08-11-2023, 12:50 PM   #266
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

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Did we establish if Independent Income can supply goods in kind and such things? - so that it can represent (at lower tech levels) some kind of estate with an ability to produce some basic goods, or support from a tribe who can likewise provide day to day maintenance. Which I guess could also apply in Cyberpunk if the character was supported by an Feral Urban tribe or Nomad Clan or something...
In GURPS Fantasy, I allowed Independent Income to represent the situation of a client who could show up regularly at his patron's house for dinner and get small presents.

In the case of a TL0 society without money, I'd say that the $ in monthly income represent, not money, but a certain amount of credit with other people for some kind of material aid. But the restriction I would put on it is that this aid must take the form of the sort of goods that form part of the common standard of living; you don't get to choose special goods, or at least you have to do a lot of negotiating for them, just as, in a society with money, if you wanted a fancy outfit or an expensive weapon you'd have to hunt for a seller and then negotiate with them over the price.
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Old 08-11-2023, 01:27 PM   #267
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In the case of a TL0 society without money, I'd say that the $ in monthly income represent, not money, but a certain amount of credit with other people for some kind of material aid. But the restriction I would put on it is that this aid must take the form of the sort of goods that form part of the common standard of living; you don't get to choose special goods, or at least you have to do a lot of negotiating for them, just as, in a society with money, if you wanted a fancy outfit or an expensive weapon you'd have to hunt for a seller and then negotiate with them over the price.
I could also see this working in a more modern setting, a sort of "Your money's no good here" effect, where you can purchase goods or services, "bribe" others, etc entirely on your social credit. Maybe make it an enhancement - Social Credit. Rather than a monthly income, Independent Income (Social Credit) allows you to "purchase" items entirely on your social credit (which accumulates at the same rate as normal II would). This has the benefit that you don't need to carry around cash (or credit cards or similar, but Social Credit has the benefit of being untraceable) and thus can't lose it to robbery or misadventure, but the drawback that people need to recognize who/what you are for it to apply (which at a minimum will typically require removing any sort of disguise). I'm thinking you'd follow the guidelines from Reputation for setting price - if it applies to almost everyone (x1) all the time (x1), it's normal price, while if it only applies to a large class (x1/2) on a 10 or less (x1/2), it's 1/4th price. Obviously, you'll need to have a reason why everyone extends to you such social credit - many characters who have Independent Income (Social Credit) may also have a positive Reputation to match.
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Old 08-11-2023, 01:31 PM   #268
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

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I'm thinking you'd follow the guidelines from Reputation for setting price - if it applies to almost everyone (x1) all the time (x1), it's normal price, while if it only applies to a large class (x1/2) on a 10 or less (x1/2), it's 1/4th price.
I would base it on how often you can acquire the things you want. "Can only shop at half the shops in town" is only a limitation if there's important things you can't get at those shops.
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Old 08-11-2023, 01:38 PM   #269
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I would base it on how often you can acquire the things you want. "Can only shop at half the shops in town" is only a limitation if there's important things you can't get at those shops.
As always, it's up to the GM to ensure that any Limitation is actually limiting (and adjust the price if necessary, in cases where it's not as limiting as expected... or more limiting than expected). "Only half the people in town react favorably toward me" is only a Limitation if there are important people you need to interact with not included in that half, after all.
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Last edited by Varyon; 08-11-2023 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 08-12-2023, 11:44 AM   #270
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

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I ignore Impulse Buys because trading character points for transient resources is inherently a bad idea (in a short campaign it tends to make you overpowered, in a long campaign it tends to leave you behind).
Then you can't Trade Points for Money at all, and it's not relevant. Although "leaving you behind" always seems like a weird argument to me. RPGs aren't zero-sum races to see who gets the highest point character.
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