Active defense debate o_Ô

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Luther

-3?

You should have an ability around 17-18 in order to make such a Deceptive Attack useful. Moreover, generally (and mathematically) DA is worth using only for skills 13+ that are not that common around NPCs.

Depends on the NPC, if they're ganging up 3:1 on the PC, then they probably believe themselves outclassed, it can be worth it to them to make an attack in the 6-9 range which might get through, vs making an attack in the 12-15 range which will probably not get through, and if they're working together as a team they may willingly try Deceptive Attacks which will miss more often, relying on their comrades to distract their target.

Originally Posted by Luther

So the "hit spiral" (once you are hit, you are hit by all successive attacks) would still be a problem.

If there's no Parry or Block available to the character, sure, and the next round he'll also have shock issues unless he has High Pain Threshold.
I don't see a problem with this. Once he's hit, he should be more susceptible to follow-up hits unless he can pull back and regroup.
If someone's outnumbered 3:1, unless he's really good, or has friends who can come to the rescue, he's going to get his ass handed to him.

[Luther]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Depends on the NPC, if they're ganging up 3:1 on the PC, then they probably believe themselves outclassed, it can be worth it to them to make an attack in the 6-9 range which might get through, vs making an attack in the 12-15 range which will probably not get through

You cannot reduce your skill below 10 with Deceptive Attack (B370).

Even if you allow it, mathematically it isn't worth.

NPC broadsword-12, PC dodge-13

normal attack: P(12-)*(1-P(13-)) = 7.2%

deceptive attack -3: P(6-)*(1-P(10-)) = 4.6%

Deceptive attack is useful only for skills 13+, generally speaking.

I don't see a problem with this. Once he's hit, he should be more susceptible to follow-up hits unless he can pull back and regroup.
If someone's outnumbered 3:1, unless he's really good, or has friends who can come to the rescue, he's going to get his ass handed to him.

Yeah, if that's by design, it's fair. However I'd like to avoid the "hit spiral".

[Stephane_Theriault]

Originally Posted by Twyll

A duellist character with DX 13 [60], HT 13 [30] and Speed +0,5 [10] (high power gaming) has a basic Speed of 6.5 + 0,5 = 7,0, for a Dodge of 10. If he has Combat Reflexes, this levels his Dodge to 11.

11 is nowhere near 14. 11+ is what, 63% success? 14+ is around 93%. So this is a major difference.

Originally Posted by Twyll

He wears leather armor and a fine sword in combat, wich is no encombrance at all for a ST 10 man. This makes him an excellent swordsman on 1 to one fights, and hence a tough one to take down as HT 13 allows good probability to resist stun and unconsciousness. Here we are for 100 character points. And I'm not talking about the Increased Dodge/Parry advantages, bonuses for acrobatic dodge, retreat, drop prone and the like.

In fact the debate is not about munchkinism, but more about how to make fight sequences not during hours in a munchkin game session.

As was already said, this problem is practically non-existent if you use Deceptive Attacks and/or Feint.

Also, leather armor is at most DR2, so one hit can cause a lot of damage. With HT 13, 8 points of damage puts you at half move and dodge. Also, a major wound to the face or vitals gives a -5 penalty to the HT roll; -10 for the brain.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Der Wanderer

The point is as long as all players are happy the GM should be happy too.

I would take exception to that statment as it implies that a GM goal is to amke his players happy. as opsend to have fun with his friends.

It is distntyl possible for the players to be happy and the GM not. But this is a stong indcation that there migh be a play style mismatch.

[Polaris]

Originally Posted by Ellie the Technomancer

As was already said, this problem is practically non-existent if you use Deceptive Attacks and/or Feint.

Neither of these is available for ranged attacks, hence at least part of the problem.

-Polaris

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Luther

You cannot reduce your skill below 10 with Deceptive Attack (B370).

I like giving semi-skilled fighters the option of effectively swinging half-wild and possibly connecting.
This is actually pretty realistic when you think about the effect of a semi-skilled fighter fancing an expert, and trying his best to connect by deception.
He's more likely to fail, but he'll still try to do it.

Originally Posted by Luther

Even if you allow it, mathematically it isn't worth.

All the more reason to use it, especially for NPCs against PCs at a 3:1 ratio.

Of course, if the NPCs are really scared, and they know which one of them the PC is engaging, the other two might AoA Accurate, and convert the +4 bonus to their 12- skill to a -3 Deceptive attack on a 10- to hit.

Originally Posted by Luther

Yeah, if that's by design, it's fair. However I'd like to avoid the "hit spiral".

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to avoid, and why.

[Kyle Aaron]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

Speed is not a base attribute, its a secondary characteristic with a recommended limit of +/- 2.00 from the calculated value except for nonhumans and supers.

Plus, it's 20pts a level. 20pts is 6 levels of a new skill, or 5 extra levels of an old skill. Consider:

Joe Average, stats all 10, Speed 5, Dodge 8.

He can get Speed 6, and thus Dodge 9, for 20pts.

Or he can get a Melee weapon, 20pts gets him, with a DX/avg skill, Attribute+5, or Skill 15 with that weapon. That's Parry of 10. Plus, he gets to attack.

Of course, if you gave him 200 or 500 points to spend, then he'll just get the extra Speed, AND the weapon skill. But if it's a 50 or 100pt character, then the player starts having to choose between things...

So what's being said here is that, "if you have a 200-pt character, he can do things that are really powerful and not very realistic in flavour, more cinematic." Well, yeah! A high-point character should be able to do crazy stuff like that.

If you don't want munchkins, don't give them munchkin-level points.

[Polaris]

Jim-Bob,

As I already showed on the Uberthread (and others did as well), it is possible to get a dodge of 13 or even more (as high as 19!) with "default" stat characters (stats of 10). In short, you can get shockingly high Dodge defense scores for a suprisingly low number of points.

-Polaris

[Claudius]

Originally Posted by Polaris

As I already showed on the Uberthread (and others did as well), it is possible to get a dodge of 13 or even more (as high as 19!) with "default" stat characters (stats of 10). In short, you can get shockingly high Dodge defense scores for a suprisingly low number of points.

Sorry, could you tell me what which überthread this is, or could you tell me why getting a Dodge as high as 19 with few points is possible?

I think it's not, but maybe I overlooked something.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Claudius

Sorry, could you tell me what which überthread this is, or could you tell me why getting a Dodge as high as 19 with few points is possible?

I think it's not, but maybe I overlooked something.

The überthread aka Is Dodge Overpowering?