Major wounds?

[King Leonidas]

do major wounds require surgery or first aid? with blunt force trauma to the skull?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by King Leonidas

do major wounds require surgery or first aid? with blunt force trauma to the skull?

Require for what? The question is confusing on multiple levels. Firstly, because obviously not caring for an injury is always a possibility, and indeed always the default possibility. Secondly, because of the extremely basic fact that only in specified exceptions do wounds have effects that require medical care to reverse. Thirdly, because major wounds really aren't special in general.

[Varyon]

First Aid is sufficient for many Major Wounds, although there are optional rules that require Surgery for certain ones (a Major Wound to the Vitals calls for Surgery, for example). Some GM's may decide that a Major Wound automatically means there's internal bleeding, in which case First Aid would be insufficient to stop the bleeding. In most cases, of course, the character can stop bleeding and start healing on their own with absolutely no medical treatment; the exception are some Crippling results, where bones need to be set for the crippling to not become permanent or where Crushing Major Wounds to the trachea will kill a character without aid unless they have Doesn't Breathe and/or Very Fast or faster Regeneration (the result is at least Temporary Crippling, which lasts until all the HP are restored, and the effect of Crippling here is that you can't breathe). Burning Major Wounds also require medical care to recover and survive (you need an IV with a large intake of fluids, otherwise you'll just continue to ooze blood plasma until you expire). Note the latter bits are from GURPS Bio-Tech, and while they may be realistic, they are probably too harsh for most games.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Varyon

(a Major Wound to the Vitals calls for Surgery, for example).

Again, requires for what?

There's severe bleeding (MA138) which requires surgery to stop bleeding on certain wounds. But it doesn't matter whether they're major or minor - one of the key effects there is that even a relatively tiny 1-point vitals/arteries wound becomes dangerous because it bleeds with a high penalty, fast, and can't be stopped by easy field treatment.

Lasting and Permanent Injuries (MA 138-139) cares about major wounds, but first aid has no relevance. (It doesn't say so, but using surgery on such injuries like on crippling under BS 424 rules might be appropriate.)

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Again, requires for what?

I assume "for treatment." First Aid is used to treat wounds; I believe OP is asking if Major Wounds require Surgery, or if First Aid will suffice. I couldn't recall if the optional rules for severe bleeding (which I think first showed up in High Tech, but I may be misremembering) to certain hit locations required the wounds to be Major or not; looks like they apply even with lesser wounds. I also don't recall if head trauma is one of the "Surgery Only" wounds, but I believe it is.

I believe in Basic Set, Surgery generally only applies for fixing crippled limbs and the like, as well as for repairing Mortal Wounds, and I think interacts with a few Disadvantages. Aside from that, First Aid is sufficient for any sort of quick repair to stop bleeding and treat shock, regardless of how severe the wound is. As I noted, some GM's may opt to change this - if Major Wounds can lead to internal bleeding, that's something that can probably only be recovered from on your own or with Surgery, First Aid won't help (although I'd let it serve to slow the bleeding and treat the initial shock, giving you more time to reach a surgeon; Physician would be able to do the same, in addition to offsetting some of the HP loss).

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I assume "for treatment." First Aid is used to treat wounds; I believe OP is asking if Major Wounds require Surgery, or if First Aid will suffice. I couldn't recall if the optional rules for severe bleeding (which I think first showed up in High Tech, but I may be misremembering) to certain hit locations required the wounds to be Major or not; looks like they apply even with lesser wounds. I also don't recall if head trauma is one of the "Surgery Only" wounds, but I believe it is.

I believe in Basic Set, Surgery generally only applies for fixing crippled limbs and the like, as well as for repairing Mortal Wounds, and I think interacts with a few Disadvantages. Aside from that, First Aid is sufficient for any sort of quick repair to stop bleeding and treat shock, regardless of how severe the wound is. As I noted, some GM's may opt to change this - if Major Wounds can lead to internal bleeding, that's something that can probably only be recovered from on your own or with Surgery, First Aid won't help (although I'd let it serve to slow the bleeding and treat the initial shock, giving you more time to reach a surgeon; Physician would be able to do the same, in addition to offsetting some of the HP loss).

"For treatment" isn't really answering anything. Treatment to achieve what? GURPS doesn't have an action so vague as 'treat a wound'. As BS 424 says, "The two main uses for First Aid skill (p. 195) are bandaging and treating shock."

Both of those are, at base, ways of getting back HP. GURPS RAW doesn't track individual wounds, after all. Obviously custom wounding systems can change that, but none has been mentioned.

Bandaging can also stop bleeding. In Basic, it can stop all bleeding, there's no overlap between duties of first aid and surgery. MA Severe Bleeding changes that, of course.

What wounds bleed is, per BS 420, at GM discretion and they could make major wounds relevant, but there's no basis for us to expect that unless it is a burning or corrosion wound. Severe Bleeding doesn't add any suggestion of crushing to the skull causing bleeding, and in fact specifies a set of damage types that don't include crushing. (I'm not against crushing brains causing bleeding, but again if we don't know what rules are being used we have no way to answer questions about them.)



You're right! I didn't remember it, but there's an earlier sibling to the MA Severe Bleeding rules under Stopping the Bleeding in the Optional Wounding Rules box on HT 162. I mainly remember that box for the Body Hits injury-capping overpenetration option. That one doesn't differentiate by damage types, so used as written it would apply to crushing wounds to the skull if the GM ruled that they were bleeding.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by King Leonidas

do major wounds require surgery or first aid? with blunt force trauma to the skull?

Others in the thread are discussing the RAW options for when RAW GURPS supports detailed wound handling, but many folks ignore some or all of the advanced injury rules and GURPS works fine.

Realistic and detailed treatment of this sort of thing is not traditional for most genres. Protagonists get hurt and have a "cool red spot" that doesn't impede subsequent heroism.

I am reminded of (non-GURPS) Harnmaster, where there was a joke along the lines of "The game is so realistic that more PCs die from infected wounds than from battles," although I seem to recall something about the chiurgeon botching the cauterizing roll being an especially traumatic way to lose a PC as well.

[Alden Loveshade]

The discussion in the "Can no Medical Training be Better than First Aid?" might possibly help:

https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=196157