[Magic] Combat-usability of Wizards

[Bruno]

For high area effect damage, I like Create Fire + Fast Fire, which multiplies the damage from the burning.

I combined the two in a custom spell called Conflagration (on my wiki site).

For the D&D-like missile spells, I made the Explosion spells cheaper and added a few "Fuel air explosion" type spell at the price point of existing explosions - diminishes at damage/(range*2) rather than damage/(Range*3).

http://ottgaming.grimoire.ca/Spell_Changes#Fire_College

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

A Margery 3 Skill 25 Can cast a 3d missile spell ever other round for no fatigue
A Margery 4 Skill 30 Can cast a 4d missile spell ever other round for no fatigue.

Actually slight better than ever other round which would be 4 round to complete 2 attacks, they could do in 3 Rounds (cast one in one hand hold, cast a second in the other, then Do any of AoA(Double), DWA or Extra Attack to throw both in the 3rd round.

You need Missile Spell Mastery, otherwise you can't cast spells while having a missile spell at hand.

[TJA]

Actually, Kuroshima exactly met the core of my thoughts and problems.
Thanx for that ...

Thanx to all of you!
Let me try to summarize.


Yes, there may be fine spells for wizards to use.

But when we realy talk only about "artillery" and similar fast, repeatable combat spells, we run into several limits: Spells, Fatigue, Speed, Repeatability, Skill-Level and those attack rolls together with a possible defense (Dodge, Block or a Resistance roll).

Higher levels of Magery do allow for some fixes!
Not only because of higher damage, but esp. because of the Effects of Magery (at 4+).

But beside Magery and high levels of Skill, we still have only so much fatigue, still an attack roll and a defense or resistance roll against magical attacks, as mentioned in my first posting.

And i just hoped, that people already have established ways to handle those things.

I got some good ideas for spells from you! That will help in equiping my NPC mage :)

But so far, nobody mentioned a system of rules and enhancement to fix the above things.

Nobody actually *uses* a system that allows to mimick those old D&D days for mages?

Dish out high damage *fast*, small damage *often*, some things even without a defense roll and all of that not only several times, but also repeated on several encounters on the same day - maybe day after day.

One idea was to use Modular Abilities - at best restricted to Spells and Energy Reservoir together with Regeneration (ER).

So again, did anybody realy *use* such a system and has practical experience with it?
With what cornerstones (Levels, Points, numbers, Enhancements, Limitation, ...)?
Additional ideas?
Other ideas?

[TJA]

Originally Posted by Bruno

For high area effect damage, I like Create Fire + Fast Fire, which multiplies the damage from the burning.

I liked the idea, but Fast Fire is a Regular Spell.

So, i suppose you need to point it at an - already burning - enemy or at an hex on fire.

It seems to be overkill against a single opponent (it seems to be one of the, if not THE most damage dealing spell), but it would not help against those 100 orcs attacking on order of the Lich-King.

There should be an Area version :D

[Ts_]

Well, since the typical Gurps magic is so full of cheap utility spells and one only needs 1 cp in each spell, it's hard to make a wizard that is only good at combat. They will always be good at utility as well unless the player deliberately skips those spells. And then the wizard already has a role and shouldn't be a super damage dealer as well.

So any solution to make wizards damage dealers would either depart from the standard magic system quite a lot or be overpowered to begin with ...

Of course, you could just have two kinds of magic in the world and let wizards choose: Do you want to be an artillery wizard based on some alternative magic system or a utility wizard in the standard system? Think of it as a Sorcerer (raw power) vs. Wizard (versatile) thing. The only overlap between these two classes is IQ (if the non-standard system even depends on it), to avoid munchkins being good at both things. (That is, spells and Magery have to be bought seperately for both.)

Regards
Ts

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by TJA

I liked the idea, but Fast Fire is a Regular Spell.

So, i suppose you need to point it at an - already burning - enemy or at an hex on fire.

It seems to be overkill against a single opponent (it seems to be one of the, if not THE most damage dealing spell), but it would not help against those 100 orcs attacking on order of the Lich-King.

There should be an Area version :D

That's why I created Conflagration, which even bundles it in with Create Fire (see that wiki link ;)

EDIT: Oh heck. I'll just paste it here.

Conflagration

Area spell

Fills the area with a gout of intense flame that requires no fuel (if cast in midair, it produces a sphere of flame, which falls to the ground).
This is real fire, and will quickly ignite any flammable objects it touches. Cannot be cast within rock, foes, etc.
Duration: 10s
Base Cost: 2 per 1d+1 damage per second, up to Magery dice of damage, minimum 4 for 2d+2. Half that to maintain.
Ordinary fires set by this spell do not require maintenance, but will only burn with their natural intensity once the spell ends.
Casting time: 2 seconds
Prerequisites: Create Fire, Fast Fire, Magery 2.

[TJA]

Originally Posted by Ts_

Of course, you could just have two kinds of magic in the world and let wizards choose: Do you want to be an artillery wizard based on some alternative magic system or a utility wizard in the standard system? Think of it as a Sorcerer (raw power) vs. Wizard (versatile) thing. The only overlap between these two classes is IQ (if the non-standard system even depends on it), to avoid munchkins being good at both things. (That is, spells and Magery have to be bought seperately for both.)

I quite like that idea!

:)

[TJA]

As written here http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...7&postcount=76 i only now learned about the newer D&D editions way to handle magic:

Encounter, Daily and At-Will Spells.

This currently feels like a solution that may help with my problems.

Adding such a concept may help in allowing some things more often and easy and others still often enough, without breaking somethings.

Some smaller combat spells could be Encounter spells, some bigger would be daily spells and less brutal things may be At-Will spells.

It could be handled with 3 different types of Magery, dedicated ER for each type and possibly MA. Add different types of Regeneration (ER) for more playroom and add some rules. This concept could even be enhanced for special effects like certain required aspects or situations for a type of Magery, Spell, ER, Regeneration and MA.
(c) by TJA :D

I don´t know this concept from D&D, coming from the boxed rules, but i bet this would work *great* in GURPS!

Somebody interested to work together on such a concept for GURPS?
Ah - time will prevent me from working on that before the end of November.
:-|

Maybe i can latter write some things up ...

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by TJA

But when we realy talk only about "artillery" and similar fast, repeatable combat spells, we run into several limits: Spells, Fatigue, Speed, Repeatability, Skill-Level and those attack rolls together with a possible defense (Dodge, Block or a Resistance roll).


But beside Magery and high levels of Skill, we still have only so much fatigue, still an attack roll and a defense or resistance roll against magical attacks, as mentioned in my first posting.


But so far, nobody mentioned a system of rules and enhancement to fix the above things.

Well a mage with Magery 3 and fireball at 25 can cast a 3d fireball every other round at no DP cost. -3 to cost from high skill.
Now that means he is more focused on fireball since he put a lot of points into that skill but that is similar to the spear kabab guy mentioned earlier.
Now that is a single target fireball, explosive fireball at skill 25 will cost you 0 FP for 1d, 1 FP for 2d or 3 FP for 3d, again in one turn to prep.

This also means you can take 3 seconds to prep a 9d fireball at a cost of 6 FP. This is IMHO better then a D&D mage who can cast what 9 of the same spell per day max. That may have changed in later editions, I know D&D and AD&D only, so any changes made after the 80s I am unfamiliar with.

Originally Posted by TJA

But beside Magery and high levels of Skill, we still have only so much fatigue, still an attack roll and a defense or resistance roll against magical attacks, as mentioned in my first posting.


But so far, nobody mentioned a system of rules and enhancement to fix the above things.

Nobody actually *uses* a system that allows to mimick those old D&D days for mages?

Dish out high damage *fast*, small damage *often*, some things even without a defense roll and all of that not only several times, but also repeated on several encounters on the same day - maybe day after day.

Well I am opposed to the idea of no defense spells so never tried or allowed those but you could make some up.
I think my above example shows an effective option (though high point or focused build) for fast and high damage.
However options for increasing your effective skill to reduce cost exist.
I cant find it but there was a published system for trade off where instead of a flat -1 to cost and half time for each 5 skill you traded -3 skill for -1 fp
Anyone know where that optional rule was printed?
Using it to get -3 skill only requires skill 20 or so.
Also some people use techniques to buy down the penalties, which makes it even cheaper.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by TJA

As written here http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...7&postcount=76 i only now learned about the newer D&D editions way to handle magic:

Encounter, Daily and At-Will Spells.

This currently feels like a solution that may help with my problems.

How would this help? And it seems to add a lot of extra complexity and things for the mage to spend points on.
Most spells are combat/per encounter and high skill will shove almost all of them into the at will category and of course daily any spell fits there.
One thing you could do is add Threshold magery and regular magery to the mix to give you personal FP for ordinary use and Threshold FP for more limited use as it would recover daily so not something to be used when normal FP would do as that recovers faster.
Rules are in place for changing the Tally and recovery options for Threshold magery as well. I think its +30% on Magery to be able to use both methods.