New Reality Seeds

[Astromancer]

If you alter the history of Ireland, you alter the history of the British Empire and the whole planet. So try the idea of a strong unified Ireland as competitor and ally to England in the late 1500's.

Ireland, if it had been a strong unified state, would have been very likely to have gone Protestant during the Reformation. It was Christian without being Romanised and well outside of the area of the old Roman Empire. The only nations outside of the area of the Roman Empire to stay Catholic during the Reformations were Poland and Ireland. So, given a strong King of Ireland, an Irish Reformation seems very likely.

Paths to a strong unified Ireland? you ask. I see three viable paths.

A) In 1014 at the Battle of Clontarf both Brian Boru and his heir were killed. If they both live they would have likely started a strong dynasty and probably unified Ireland.

B) Diamait Mac Murchada merely speeded up Norman interest in Ireland, but is early death well before he meets Henry II would prolong the reign of Ruaidri Ua Conchobair who was making good headway in forming a unified Kingdom of Ireland.

C) Go for a full out Norman conquest of Ireland. The Normans did a very disorganized halfhearted job of conquering Ireland. The Irish got all of the problems Normans brought to most places but none of the perks. A Hiberio-Norman Ireland, like an Anglo-Norman England could have been a very strong blend.

In any of these cases, England and Scotland have a third Kingdom as competitor, ally, or foe. You'd get more complex Swashbuckling.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

If you alter the history of Ireland, you alter the history of the British Empire and the whole planet. So try the idea of a strong unified Ireland as competitor and ally to England in the late 1500's.

Ireland, if it had been a strong unified state, would have been very likely to have gone Protestant during the Reformation. .

Mm. A rivalry between Ireland and England seems inevitable if they both strong and neighbours. England inherently poses a bigger threat to Ireland than any continental power, because a strong England must be an England with a strong fleet. That probably means if that if England goes Protestant, then Ireland remains Catholic and vice versa.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Mm. A rivalry between Ireland and England seems inevitable if they both strong and neighbours. England inherently poses a bigger threat to Ireland than any continental power, because a strong England must be an England with a strong fleet. That probably means if that if England goes Protestant, then Ireland remains Catholic and vice versa.

Eh, Scandinavian kingdoms and neighboring German principalities that didn't like each other at all didn't alternate like that, so there's no particular reason to think it would matter in this case.

Though if you are messing with the history of Europe during the Norman era, there's no reason to think the Catholic church holds together long enough to inspire Protestantism. There were several crises for it between those, including a period when there was a possibility of a Norman conquest of Italy deposing the Pope (a Norman army even captured Pope Leo IX in 1053, and the various Norman princes of southern Italy continued to play Papal politics for the next century)

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Mm. A rivalry between Ireland and England seems inevitable if they both strong and neighbours. England inherently poses a bigger threat to Ireland than any continental power, because a strong England must be an England with a strong fleet. That probably means if that if England goes Protestant, then Ireland remains Catholic and vice versa.

England had long struggles with Protestant powers too. The Dutch were the prime example, and the USA has been a mainly protestant nation and never more so than when in the late 18th and early 19th centuries when Britain did see us as a serious threat/foe/menace.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Eh, Scandinavian kingdoms and neighboring German principalities that didn't like each other at all didn't alternate like that, so there's no particular reason to think it would matter in this case.

Though if you are messing with the history of Europe during the Norman era, there's no reason to think the Catholic church holds together long enough to inspire Protestantism. There were several crises for it between those, including a period when there was a possibility of a Norman conquest of Italy deposing the Pope (a Norman army even captured Pope Leo IX in 1053, and the various Norman princes of southern Italy continued to play Papal politics for the next century)

The 16th century French Kings were interested in a Patriarch of Paris who would have been an equal to the Pope. France might have proclaimed that Rome left the true church but Paris remained truly Catholic.

[Astromancer]

Politics on Homeline seen underused in these games. Why not have Al Jazeera doing a program were they show the major victories of key early Islamic armies.

However, at the Battle of Walaja on a Q6 parallel, someone uses drones to give the Persians a view of the battle. The TV crew picks up walkie-talkie broadcasts that make it clear that the drones told the Persians what was going on and the commanders could relay instructions in realtime to subcommanders. Not only do the Persians win but Khalid al Walid whom the Prophet himself called "The Sword of Islam" is killed.

The news of these events causes an international fury. The Islamic nations are screaming for action against whoever fouled up what is for them sacred history. The Icops need to tread carefully to avoid an big international crisis.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

The 16th century French Kings were interested in a Patriarch of Paris who would have been an equal to the Pope. France might have proclaimed that Rome left the true church but Paris remained truly Catholic.

All princes in all of history wanted local control of their state's church. Indeed part of that Papal politics the Normans were messing with in the 11th century was the final split of the Eastern and Western churches as the Byzantine and Holy Roman Emperors fought it out for supremacy in Italy (arguably they both lost). Henry VIII was by no means the first king to split the church over control issues, that was Emperor Constantine.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

The news of these events causes an international fury. The Islamic nations are screaming for action against whoever fouled up what is for them sacred history. The Icops need to tread carefully to avoid an big international crisis.

Can that level of religious faith even *still exist* in a civilization with crosstime travel? Things would be bad enough in a setting with realistic physics and a synchronized now - simply because of the variant texts and religiously important events that came out differently. In a setting where there are retarded histories and supernatural physics that will let you go talk to historical religious figures or actual gods, a battle that came out wrong isn't the problem, it's the guys who went shot video of Muhammad sacrificing to the Moon God, going into a trance, glowing with a silvery light and speaking prophetic poetry....

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Can that level of religious faith even *still exist* in a civilization with crosstime travel? .

Yes it can. They might alter what they believe but they surely won't change that they believe.

[scc]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

If you alter the history of Ireland, you alter the history of the British Empire and the whole planet. So try the idea of a strong unified Ireland as competitor and ally to England in the late 1500's.

Ireland, if it had been a strong unified state, would have been very likely to have gone Protestant during the Reformation. It was Christian without being Romanised and well outside of the area of the old Roman Empire. The only nations outside of the area of the Roman Empire to stay Catholic during the Reformations were Poland and Ireland. So, given a strong King of Ireland, an Irish Reformation seems very likely.

Paths to a strong unified Ireland? you ask. I see three viable paths.

A) In 1014 at the Battle of Clontarf both Brian Boru and his heir were killed. If they both live they would have likely started a strong dynasty and probably unified Ireland.

B) Diamait Mac Murchada merely speeded up Norman interest in Ireland, but is early death well before he meets Henry II would prolong the reign of Ruaidri Ua Conchobair who was making good headway in forming a unified Kingdom of Ireland.

C) Go for a full out Norman conquest of Ireland. The Normans did a very disorganized halfhearted job of conquering Ireland. The Irish got all of the problems Normans brought to most places but none of the perks. A Hiberio-Norman Ireland, like an Anglo-Norman England could have been a very strong blend.

In any of these cases, England and Scotland have a third Kingdom as competitor, ally, or foe. You'd get more complex Swashbuckling.

Been playing around with an idea that plays off of the base idea here. In the English Civil War, King Charles I in an attempt to invalidate some of the moves of the English Parliament create/calls for an Irish one, figuring that two parliaments (Irish and Scottish) can overrule a third (English), weather or not it works in the short term, the long term outcomes are interesting. With the Restoration you would have the British Empire being an actual empire, likely with the power of (the English) Parliament curtailed.