1980s American Cars, Guns, Gadgets and Consumer Goods [Atmosphere, look, minutiae]

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I've got technical questions about harvesting pelts or fur at late TL7 and early TL8 (1978-1988):

1) What would you do with a fox, bobcat or coyote pelt/hide if you wanted to harvest it from the animal and preserve it in good conditions for a week or so, before it could conveniently be transported to a professional furrier?

-- 1a) Is it enough to skin the animal and scrape as much undesirable blood and meat off the hide as is practical and then store it in a cold place?

-- 1b) Would it instead be necessary to start a more technical process of preparing the hides/pelts, in order for them to be undamaged by any undesired organic decay when the furrier got them in a week or two?

-- 1c) What does any treatment of the hides or pelts entail at TL7/TL8? Is it the same as low-tech curing hides and eventually tanning them or has technology changed it?

2) What kind of space and equipment do you need for this kind of work?
Assume that there will rarely be more than one or two foxes at a time and that bobcats are not shot every year, but 20-30 coyotes could be killed in one trip and it would be nice to have facilities for even double that, if practical.

-- 2a) Could an old trapper's cabin be used for this purpose, assuming that any necessary TL6 to TL8 tools are brought in?

-- 2b) Can anyone give me a description of the outside and inside of such a cabin that had been used once a year for the past decade for the harvesting of skins, mostly from coyotes? What kind of equipment is there, how is it arranged, etc.?

It must be possible to do a fairly good job at fairly low TL as Indians and Frontiersmen have been doing so for hundreds of years. True many of the ones on the white man's side were part of fur cartels, as effectively even quite a few on the Indian side (for it was often a joint venture of a tribe affecting a tribe's lifestyle, foreign policy, etc). Such enterprises and chains of enterprises could afford a lot of specialization, a typical one being a mega corp maintaining a general store at one of it's outposts for hunters and trappers to sell their catch and buy stuff from back east at. New France was one big fur cartel and much of it remained so even after the British conquest put it under new masters.
Some trappers and traders were loners though and in any case it must be possible to keep the fur long enough to get it to a trading post. It did not even require a cabin but it is obvious that it could be done on the trail simply from the fact that people did so.

As a historian I only know that it is possible to do that-because it was done. According to my Dad who spent a few years in Maupin (now a fishing resort then a rancher's and lumberman's town and one of those legendary Arcadia USA places where respectable teenagers carry guns without being mistaken for gangsters) as a boy, you hang up a deer to hold it in place, cut a circle around the neck with the knife and put the knife between the meat and the skin and pull the one from the other being careful to save as much of both as possible. There is a little bit of lard between the muscle and the skin giving a nice marking place (the lard is also useful for it's own purposes). One important thing is to take care to have a sharp knife. All animals have to be gutted right away but the rest of the project can be done later. Larger animals often have to be tied down to the top of a vehicle , now a pickup but in the old days it must have been done by mules or even a porter team. If they are heavy enough deer, etc, may have to be pushed on the ground to the vehicle though I should think that causes damage that an old time fur hunter probably cannot tolerate if done to long. If they are light they can be carried out with a dead man's carry with the legs looped around the neck and the body on the back. Note that when you get home the actual skinning should be done outside the cabin, either outside proper or in a secondary shack lest it stink up the place (until it is treated it is after all a corpse like any other). This is a mundane detail that an urbanite may not think of because mundane details are to mundane to consider. On the trail deer probably were cut up into smaller packages for easier transport but small stuff like beaver could presumably be transported whole, probably in a bag or package.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

It must be possible to do a fairly good job at fairly low TL

My bit of Googling suggested that there aren't even any real improvements at TL 7-8. Skin the animal with a knife, "flesh" it, and stretch it to air-dry, which is sufficient to sell it to a fur buyer. Salt cure if you intend to tan the hide. The only modern references I caught were for details like adjustable stretching racks (rather than retying the crossover points on four wood poles, or having several different sizes of wooden boards) or hanging the animal from nylon parachute cord while skinning it. And no doubt the knives are cheaper and better, relative to income. But no changes to the basic technique, or power tools for automatic flensing, or tech changes like that. Sounded like the ghosts of TL4 frontiersmen could just step right in and help out.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

My bit of Googling suggested that there aren't even any real improvements at TL 7-8. Skin the animal with a knife, "flesh" it, and stretch it to air-dry, which is sufficient to sell it to a fur buyer. Salt cure if you intend to tan the hide. The only modern references I caught were for details like adjustable stretching racks (rather than retying the crossover points on four wood poles, or having several different sizes of wooden boards) or hanging the animal from nylon parachute cord while skinning it. And no doubt the knives are cheaper and better, relative to income. But no changes to the basic technique, or power tools for automatic flensing, or tech changes like that. Sounded like the ghosts of TL4 frontiersmen could just step right in and help out.

The leatherworkers I know with expertise in curing hides, or just experience with some of the products of the more conservative tanneries in the EU, are horrified by what chains like Tandy Leather in the US carry today. Quality has gone down because a skin is not a precious treasure which needs to last under hard use but a decorative luxury. It can be very hard to obtain reasonable equivalents of respectable leathers before the 19th century introduction of chrome tanning.

I suspect that over the last hundred years there have been simplifications to help sport hunters preserve their trophies.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

There is a little bit of lard between the muscle and the skin giving a nice marking place(the lard is also useful for it's own purposes).

Does anyone know if foxes, bobcats or coyotes have something similar or is this a herbivore thing?

Originally Posted by jason taylor

One important thing is to take care to have a sharp knife. All animals have to be gutted right away but the rest of the project can be done later.

How long can you let a gutted animal lie in temperatures below freezing without harming the hide or fur?

And does the natural process of decay ruin hide or pelts as fast as it ruins meat?

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Larger animals often have to be tied down to the top of a vehicle , now a pickup but in the old days it must have been done by mules or even a porter team. If they are heavy enough deer, etc, may have to be pushed on the ground to the vehicle though I should think that causes damage that an old time fur hunter probably cannot tolerate if done to long. If they are light they can be carried out with a dead man's carry with the legs looped around the neck and the body on the back.

The rich hobbyists in my adventure have a poor relation who gets paid for coming round their calling places on a snowmobile with a sled to pick up the dead coyotes. If anyone bags a fox or a bobcat they'll more than likely carry it home themselves, however, as those are much more prestigious trophies.

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Note that when you get home the actual skinning should be done outside the cabin, either outside proper or in a secondary shack lest it stink up the place(until it is treated it is after all a corpse like any other).

About 300' or so from the TL8 luxury house that superficially resembles a cabin, there is a very old trapper's cabin. In the 19th century, it was a home, not just a working shed, but since no one lives there now, I expect it very well may have been converted to exclusive use as a pelt and hide harvesting station.

I'm very interested in how it would appear and what tools and machinery would be inside and outside it.

How much space does each drying hide need, stretched out on an TL7 adjustable stretching rack?

Do you keep those outside or inside, if no one lives in the shack?

Originally Posted by jason taylor

This is a mundane detail that an urbanite may not think of because mundane details are to mundane to consider. On the trail deer probably were cut up into smaller packages for easier transport but small stuff like beaver could presumably be transported whole, probably in a bag or package.

The mundane details of how the NPCs in my adventure accoplish this in 1988 (and how they did it in the past decade, as that might affect how the set-up is) might turn out to be vital to the adventure. At any rate, a shed full of stretched hides, with skinned corpses stacked high outside, is a seriously cool place to encounter a suspect in a serial killer/kidnapping case.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

My bit of Googling suggested that there aren't even any real improvements at TL 7-8. Skin the animal with a knife, "flesh" it, and stretch it to air-dry, which is sufficient to sell it to a fur buyer. Salt cure if you intend to tan the hide. The only modern references I caught were for details like adjustable stretching racks (rather than retying the crossover points on four wood poles, or having several different sizes of wooden boards) or hanging the animal from nylon parachute cord while skinning it. And no doubt the knives are cheaper and better, relative to income. But no changes to the basic technique, or power tools for automatic flensing, or tech changes like that. Sounded like the ghosts of TL4 frontiersmen could just step right in and help out.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

The leatherworkers I know with expertise in curing hides, or just experience with some of the products of the more conservative tanneries in the EU, are horrified by what chains like Tandy Leather in the US carry today. Quality has gone down because a skin is not a precious treasure which needs to last under hard use but a decorative luxury. It can be very hard to obtain reasonable equivalents of respectable leathers before the 19th century introduction of chrome tanning.

Does the fact that we just want to use the fur, and aren't looking for high-quality leather, have any impact on what needs to be done on-site to prepare the animal for harvesting the pelt?

The end use for this is using any fox or bobcats to make gloves, scarves, lining or other luxury goods, but a professional furrier would probably do most of the work. Even the more attractive coyotes would probably go to a professional furrier. The poor relation that picks up the animals just needs to do enough so that the fur doesn't spoil before he can take it to town.

He might well cure and/or tan some of the less attractive coyote hides himself, though, but I expect that most of these coyote hides make wall decorations, blankets or very rustic clothing.

There isn't actually any reason to assume that he has lower than skill 12 at Survival and Leatherworking*, which I imagine hande skinning and working the hides, respectively, but I imagine that TL8 professionals with proper machinery have effective skills 14+ at skills he doesn't have, like Professional Skill (Furrier) and Artist (Fashion Design).

*And he might well have much higher skill, as he was taught these skills in his youth and has used them for at the very least a hundred hours a year since then. He was born in 1918 and one of his grandfathers was an honest-to-God full-time actual trapper, with him and many of his relatives supplementing their income from time to time with trapping well into his adulthood.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Does anyone know if foxes, bobcats or coyotes have something similar or is this a herbivore thing?


How long can you let a gutted animal lie in temperatures below freezing without harming the hide or fur?

And does the natural process of decay ruin hide or pelts as fast as it ruins meat?


The rich hobbyists in my adventure have a poor relation who gets paid for coming round their calling places on a snowmobile with a sled to pick up the dead coyotes. If anyone bags a fox or a bobcat they'll more than likely carry it home themselves, however, as those are much more prestigious trophies.


About 300' or so from the TL8 luxury house that superficially resembles a cabin, there is a very old trapper's cabin. In the 19th century, it was a home, not just a working shed, but since no one lives there now, I expect it very well may have been converted to exclusive use as a pelt and hide harvesting station.

I'm very interested in how it would appear and what tools and machinery would be inside and outside it.

How much space does each drying hide need, stretched out on an TL7 adjustable stretching rack?

Do you keep those outside or inside, if no one lives in the shack?


The mundane details of how the NPCs in my adventure accoplish this in 1988 (and how they did it in the past decade, as that might affect how the set-up is) might turn out to be vital to the adventure. At any rate, a shed full of stretched hides, with skinned corpses stacked high outside, is a seriously cool place to encounter a suspect in a serial killer/kidnapping case.

It must be remembered that my dad did not come from a furrier family. Grandpa was a poor pastor who sometimes had to moonlight as a timberman and their family caught animals on the side because everyone did in that area. Grandpa would in many ways qualify as an archetype of Manlyman USA and even when he was older and more prosperous he was kind of a heroic throwback. But what he wasn't was a professional furrier. Still that sort of thing was as I said done opportunistically in Maupin.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Does the fact that we just want to use the fur, and aren't looking for high-quality leather, have any impact on what needs to be done on-site to prepare the animal for harvesting the pelt?

I don't know. My interest is as a potential future buyer of hide products, not a hunter who cleans pelts. I have heard complaints about modern commercial hides not having been sufficiently defleshed, or having been cut by too-hasty scraping. It sounds like this guy would take the time to do it right.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

I don't know. My interest is as a potential future buyer of hide products, not a hunter who cleans pelts. I have heard complaints about modern commercial hides not having been sufficiently defleshed, or having been cut by too-hasty scraping. It sounds like this guy would take the time to do it right.

If he can, he might. It's certain that he won't do a slip-shod job with fox or bobcat fur, as those don't come in sled lots.

But if you've got 30-50 dead coyotes and no help at hand*, you presumably have to sleep one or more times until you finish the work. Or maybe you can do some sort of rush job that will keep things from spoiling until after you've rested. In freezing temperatures, that might be an option.

For a coyote-sized critter, how long does a hasty scraping take and how long is a proper defleshing? Ballpark?

*There is help theoretically available, but apart from very fine furs they shot themselves, which he'd have to do first anyway, none of the rich hobby hunters along care enough about a bunch of coyote hides to help with defleshing them. Two or three of them might help in gutting and bleeding the kills, but no more than that.

[jason taylor]

Does anyone ever use coyote fur? I always thought that was mostly for bounty tags.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Does anyone ever use coyote fur? I always thought that was mostly for bounty tags.

The winter fur of Maine coyote looks quite nice, actually. It's more a human prejudice than anything else to consider it so much inferior to wolf fur.

Certainly, in recent years, the prices for coyote furs have been going up.

You can make some quite cool things from it.

That's a sweet coyote fur hat, for example. So's this one.

These days, you can even get them in high fashion varieties.

If they're from the 70s, they look more dingy, but it's evidence that even before our crazy modern times, people were actually buying and wearing coyote fur.