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Old 05-10-2021, 11:41 AM   #1
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Body of Fire and the Fast Fire spell giving Great Haste (Altered Time Rate) as trait?

M73 mentions how the FF spell functions as Great Haste on people with either the BOF metatrait or who are fire elementals, whose racial metatrait is relatively similar.

GH on M146 mentions this functions like having the Altered Time Rate advantage (B38)

This seems like sort of a "free benefit", I'm wondering if perhaps there should be some kind of "Fast Fire functions as Great Haste" perk that should be purchased for fire beings able to benefit from this?

Otherwise I'm not sure which part of the metatraits actually signify the ability to benefit.

If it's considered a 0pt feature then is there some kind of balancing drawback?

I noticed M73's "Slow Fire" has a similar relationship: it functions like "Slow" on fire elementals and those with the BOF metatrait...

M145 mentions Slow gives a level of Decreased Time Rate, so it's kind of a similar relationship...

So would this be a 0pt notation for any being you want to designate as "made of fire" who gets "Slow Fire is Slow" and "Fast Fire is Haste" ?

Given it would be weird for anyone to get this, since it's probably a net advantage if undetectable (nobody would think to cast Slow Fire on you if you weren't obviously made of flames, but you could tell your mage friends your secret and they could haste you) perhaps an additional drawback should be "you look like you're made of fire" so you can't appear to be made of water and get this?

Other prereqs which might be reasonable for such a feature would be whatever traits Small Fire Elemental and Body of Fire have in common which seem related to fire, such as:
1) at least one die of Always-On Burning Attack aura (perhaps less?)
2) Doesn't Breathe (Oxygen Combustion)
3) Immunity to Metabolic Hazards
4) Injury Tolerance: Diffuse
5) Weakness to Water
6) No Fine Manipulators
7) at least 10 levels of DR to Heat/Fire (perhaps less?)
Extra stuff present in only one of them (Charisma, No Manipulators, fixed 0 ST) could probably be ignored as non-essential to get the feature?

"You look like you're made of fire" sounds like a bad thing if it tells people your strengths/weaknesses but I wonder if it might be a good thing if you WEREN'T made of fire since it could lead to people making pointless attacks on you like shooting you with a squirtgun or casting Slow Fire on you pointlessly. Would that be some kind of perk for non-fire creatures?
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Old 05-10-2021, 12:39 PM   #2
DangerousThing
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Re: Body of Fire and the Fast Fire spell giving Great Haste (Altered Time Rate) as tr

Maybe I'm not as detail-minded in my old age, but I'd just say if the target is made of fire and can be effected by the Fast Fire spell, that it gains haste (Altered Time Rate 1) for the duration of the spell.

Many of the traits you mentioned, like Immunity to Metabolic Hazards really don't matter for the spell.
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Old 05-10-2021, 02:35 PM   #3
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Body of Fire and the Fast Fire spell giving Great Haste (Altered Time Rate) as tr

Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerousThing View Post
Maybe I'm not as detail-minded in my old age, but I'd just say if the target is made of fire and can be effected by the Fast Fire spell, that it gains haste (Altered Time Rate 1) for the duration of the spell.
That's basically pure advantage, counteracted by being Slow/DTR from Slow Fire, but it still seems like a net advantage if you know about this (can tell your mage friends) but your enemies don't, which is why there being hard-to-conceal indicators of your nature (for enemies to exploit w/ Slow Fire) seems like a natural companion to truly make it a 0pt feature we can ignore in template pricing.

In a world full of illusion spells where anyone can look like a fire elemental you could have a lot of Slow Fire spells wasted on them, so other indicators like "I have a burning aura I can't turn off" as a requirement (and thus indicator) also seems like a good companion.
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Old 05-10-2021, 02:43 PM   #4
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Body of Fire and the Fast Fire spell giving Great Haste (Altered Time Rate) as tr

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
it still seems like a net advantage if you know about this (can tell your mage friends) but your enemies don't,
That's true of essentially every ability or trait.

Tactics matter; knowledge informs choice of tactics. That's one thing that makes research and (military) intelligence valuable, instead of just HP, DR, and damage dice.
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Old 05-10-2021, 05:06 PM   #5
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Body of Fire and the Fast Fire spell giving Great Haste (Altered Time Rate) as tr

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
That's true of essentially every ability or trait.

Tactics matter; knowledge informs choice of tactics. That's one thing that makes research and (military) intelligence valuable, instead of just HP, DR, and damage dice.
Yeah, what I mean is there's an assumed "the fire elemental looks like something you could affect with fire magic" rather than "it looks like a bunny".

So how would you modify a fire elemental who didn't obviously look like you could cast fire spells like Slow Fire to cripple it?
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Old 05-10-2021, 09:47 PM   #6
Pursuivant
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Default Re: Body of Fire and the Fast Fire spell giving Great Haste (Altered Time Rate) as tr

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
This seems like sort of a "free benefit", I'm wondering if perhaps there should be some kind of "Fast Fire functions as Great Haste" perk that should be purchased for fire beings able to benefit from this?
It depends on the rarity of such spells in your campaign. If entities with Body of Fire can regularly benefit from Fast Fire = Great Haste, it's a perk. Otherwise, just a Feature balanced by being affected by spells like Slow Fire.

If creatures with BoF can benefit from Fast Fire = Great Haste it is also logical to assume that spells like Create Fire = Enlarge or Healing, Extinguish Fire = Deathtouch, Shrink, or Stun, and Shape Fire = Hinder, Paralyze Limb, or Total Paralysis. In that case, having Fire spells double as Body Control or Healing spells is definitely a Feature rather than a Perk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Otherwise I'm not sure which part of the metatraits actually signify the ability to benefit.
The Body of Fire metatrait is deliberately minimalist in order to be "generic." For a magical creature, applying the "Magical" Power Limitation to all traits justifies being extensively affected by Fire magic (ditto for other "Body of . . ." metatraits which represent magical elements).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Given it would be weird for anyone to get this, since it's probably a net advantage if undetectable (nobody would think to cast Slow Fire on you if you weren't obviously made of flames, but you could tell your mage friends your secret and they could haste you) perhaps an additional drawback should be "you look like you're made of fire" so you can't appear to be made of water and get this?
This assumption is very much campaign dependent. If Fire college spells have special effects on creatures with the Body of Fire metatrait, then that knowledge will be known to specialists in the appropriate fields (e.g., with a successful roll vs. Tactics, Thaumatology, or certain versions of Hidden Lore).

Otherwise, there might be a place for a "Deceptive Appearance" perk where your appearance, weapon choices, armor, of sensor signature suggests that you "should" be susceptible to certain types of attacks but you actually aren't. If your seeming appearance also causes you social problems, it is balanced by the Distinctive Features Quirk to make your overall appearance a 0-point Feature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Other prereqs which might be reasonable for such a feature would be whatever traits Small Fire Elemental and Body of Fire have in common which seem related to fire, such as:
Remember, Body of Fire is deliberately generic and isn't intended to be a complete analysis of the physiology of hot energy-based entities, which can range from superheroes to realistic science fiction aliens. These traits are all logical "optional traits" which could be added to the generic Body of Fire metatrait (add Insubstantiality and Injury Tolerance (Diffuse) for entities made of hot energy rather than a hot core of substantial material).
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Old 05-11-2021, 10:55 AM   #7
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Body of Fire and the Fast Fire spell giving Great Haste (Altered Time Rate) as tr

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
If creatures with BoF can benefit from Fast Fire = Great Haste it is also logical to assume that spells like Create Fire = Enlarge or Healing, Extinguish Fire = Deathtouch, Shrink, or Stun, and Shape Fire = Hinder, Paralyze Limb, or Total Paralysis. In that case, having Fire spells double as Body Control or Healing spells is definitely a Feature rather than a Perk.
Fast Fire / Slow Fire were the only spells that single BOF out (aside from M76's Body of Flames spell which bestows the metatrait) but the idea of making a broader range of spells affect it does sound interesting, so long as they're added in balanced pairs like heal/damage (create/extinguish).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
The Body of Fire metatrait is deliberately minimalist in order to be "generic." For a magical creature, applying the "Magical" Power Limitation to all traits justifies being extensively affected by Fire magic (ditto for other "Body of . . ." metatraits which represent magical elements).
Magical -10% from Powers I think is mostly just the -10% "Mana Sensitive" limitation from B34 which was merely "doesn't work in No Mana, any rolls pertaining to it are -5 in Low Mana".

Powers 27 says as much: "This modifier is identical to the Mana Sensitive limitation on p. B34."

Despite that though, it actually goes into further detail about it. The two aspects from B34 (influence by No Mana and Low Mana) are actually only defined as half (-5%) of the value.

The other -5% is from new aspects I don't think were mentioned in Basic Set.

Well, the first part I think is implied: the anti-power of Mana Damper affecting the environment, but the other ones are new:
1) Magic Resistance shielding others from your attacks
2) spells affect your abilities as if they were spells (like which dispel or protect against)
Not mentioned on P27 but present elsewhere are Static/Neutralize against Magic (P79 alternative mentioned under Mana Damper, P97 also mentions Neutralize for Magic, and P122 mentions both)

P176 also has notes under source-specific options for (beneficial and limiting) which I don't think apply to just taking Mana-Sensitive in -10%

There's also new benefits to Magical -10% not mentioned on P34 but instead squirreled away in an odd section, "FP Cost and Source" on P178 where you get refunded FP spent on Magical powers in High Mana.

So if I was going to give a breakdown of Magical I think it'd be a bit more multi-faceted.

Mana-Sensitive in Basic Set can remain two things:
-5% affected by terrain-locked circumstances (penalties for No or Low)
-5% affected by powers which can temporarily influence terrain (Damper)
although, given that Mana Enhancer can temporarily counteract terrain, maybe that part should work out to 0% sum?

then the expanded "Magical" rules in powers could be extra features which happen to work out to 0% so it also is a total of -10...
-5% because Neutralize/Static for Magic exist
0% from Source-Specific rules (P176)
+5% because of FP refunds in High Mana.
The 176-177 rules could probably be further broken down, even though they tend to be lumped together into 0% "hey it's a power!" features. Something like...
+1% can use Combining Powers on P170
+1% can use Power Techniques on P172
+1% can use Skills Enhancing Abiltiies on P173
+1% can use Temporary Enhancements on P172
+1% can use Using Abiltiies on Default on P173
0% uses Backfires (B236 critical spellfire) instead of Crippled Abilities (P176) except the "forgets spell" result only results in crippling
-1% subject to Abilities and Exertion FP costs on P179
-1% subject to Multiple Feats penalties on P158
-1% subject to Skills for Everyone on P172
-1% because Magic Resistance exists
-1% because spells like Ward and Dispel Magic exist and affect you
1% is chosen for convenience, you could probably fiddle with values so long as it works out to 0%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Otherwise, there might be a place for a "Deceptive Appearance" perk where your appearance, weapon choices, armor, of sensor signature suggests that you "should" be susceptible to certain types of attacks but you actually aren't.
Sort of like how Supers/Vampires can look like vulnerable humans but be bulletproof?

I can see doing that for individual advantages (like "No Signature" on Damage Resistance, though there's been huge arguments about that) though it could get trickier for stuff like Vulnerability...

If we assume "Vulnerable to Water makes it obvious water puts you out" then if you're the Wicked Witch of the West who is just a green-skinned lady you wouldn't obviously throw water at to harm unless you knew her secret, I wonder how you'd price a mitigator...

I can get -20 points for taking x4 damage from something Rare like (B46) "dragon's fire". If a foe knew about this he'd probably emphasize sending dragons after me, but if he didn't and I otherwise seemed to shrug off fire attacks, it wouldn't seem like a smart choice.

So basically it's not just the rarity of dragon's fire that's important, but whether or not you know to use it.

This sort of "know your vulnerability" emphasis plays a big role in mind games of the final battle of season 1 of the Overlord anime (last 2 eps) where misrepresenting/bluffing one's vulnerabilities emphasizes the choice of attack and how much damage is taken.

A simple "do they seem hurt" question is one way to assess this, since damage is usually obvious unless you take that perk for Unkillable where they show zero harm when suffering HP loss.

But in terms of a fire elemental it's more than "I can see water reduces their HP" because even before hitting them it's just pretty obvious "hey, they're a fire, I should throw water at them" which would not exist for chars like Wicked Witch of the West where you'd need to know "for some reason in this world water hurts those with green skin"
(or else get lucky like Dorothy and the witch is silly enough to use Fire as her primary means of torturing enemies whilst allowing castle servants to bring in water for cleaning your parapets... even though this will inevitably have a rebel throwing water around as a countermeasure to your flames)
I know in some cases GURPS also defines things by something like ~how well known is the countermeasure to your ability~ like for example Terminal Condition (PU8p17) where it's 5/10/20 for research/skill/common knowledge for simple acts

Simple/Hard is similar to the "rarity" of damage types for Vulnerability, so if we assume the baseline for rarity assumes common knowledge then maybe a vulnerability should be half-value if it requires a skill roll to know what the vulnerability is, and 1/4 value if it requires research to know it?

It seems like that stuff could fluctuate though. IE something which once required research, once advertised by someone who does the research, could later become common knowledge.

In terms of advantages that could be like starting with a -5% limitation (barely anyone knows that a kiss will cancel your sleep spells) to a -20% one (it's hard to find anyone who doesn't know this, you're a famous witch with vocal enemies) which is almost like losing points in play...

In terms of a vulnerability it could be the same thing, starting off with a low-value disadvantage (a damage multiplier few know about to exploit intentionally) to a high-value one (everyone knows to exploit it)

When would appropriate situations be to create these disads though? Like maybe if the character is in Point Debt and the GM decides "your vulnerability has gained a reputation" will be how he chooses to pay it off?
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