Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Board and Card Games > Ogre and G.E.V.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-05-2016, 09:26 PM   #1
TheDS
 
TheDS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Daytona Beach area
Default Reducing or removing randomness

A search didn't turn up anything, but if someone knows if this topic is already covered, please let me know.

I understand that some people might think it's heresy to want to play Ogre without rolling dice to determine the outcome of a battle, but there are times when you want to know whether a particular strategy or scenario is worthwhile, and playing it 100,000,000 times with a close friend just to have a reasonable sample size is simply not an available option. What's needed in this situation is a way to quickly determine if the strategy or scenario is reasonably effective or balanced. And, of course, I know many people whose dice luck is, shall we say, VERY streaky, and would prefer a test of strategic ability that does not rely on pure luck.

So what I'm wondering is if anyone has been able to reduce or remove the randomness of the basic OGRE game, and if the game play and strategies largely remained the same so as to serve as an "average" game.
__________________
What do you use to wash an OGRE? Katrina.

Visit (and LIKE) the new More in Sanity page at:
www.facebook.com/moreinsanity
TheDS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2016, 08:44 AM   #2
HeatDeath
 
Join Date: May 2012
Default Re: Reducing or removing randomness

A common technique to reduce the streakiness of die-rolling is to put 2-3 sets of chits, labeled 1-6, in a cup, and draw one randomly instead of rolling the die. When you've pulled all the chits, you put them back in the cup.

You need at least 2-3 sets so you won't consciously change your strategy after pulling all of the high numbers, but it limits streaks of really good or really bad rolls.

[The more naive solution, make everybody get "3" all the time, is a complete nonstarter - this renders everybody immune to 1-1 attacks - the most popular attack strength in the normal game.]
HeatDeath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2016, 08:50 AM   #3
wolf90
Ogre Line Editor
 
wolf90's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Default Re: Reducing or removing randomness

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeatDeath View Post
A common technique to reduce the streakiness of die-rolling is to put 2-3 sets of chits, labeled 1-6, in a cup, and draw one randomly instead of rolling the die. When you've pulled all the chits, you put them back in the cup.

You need at least 2-3 sets so you won't consciously change your strategy after pulling all of the high numbers, but it limits streaks of really good or really bad rolls.
This.

You still have to play out the scenarios, but you will need far fewer to determine if there is a problem with the weighting of the game.

D.
__________________
Proud sponsor of Ogre KS $4.5k Sheet #3 - Bringing the Vatican Guard, a Tiger-striped mercenary unit, and of course pink GEVs, to a game near you! Orders may be placed here.
wolf90 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2016, 12:55 PM   #4
dwalend
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Default Re: Reducing or removing randomness

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeatDeath View Post
You need at least 2-3 sets so you won't consciously change your strategy after pulling all of the high numbers, but it limits streaks of really good or really bad rolls.
I usually use 6 sets for each side. Each side draws from its own cup.

You want each side to have its own cup to avoid "stealing" the better roles.

Six sets are enough to have small- and medium runs of luck, but not overwhelming luck. For the basic scenario, that's about enough to avoid returning chits to the pot.

The side that runs through the chits first usually wins. That lesson flows out to Ogre strategy, too, even with a die.
dwalend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2016, 02:24 PM   #5
Misplaced Buckeye
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Reducing or removing randomness

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwalend View Post
I usually use 6 sets for each side. Each side draws from its own cup.

You want each side to have its own cup to avoid "stealing" the better roles.

Six sets are enough to have small- and medium runs of luck, but not overwhelming luck. For the basic scenario, that's about enough to avoid returning chits to the pot.

The side that runs through the chits first usually wins. That lesson flows out to Ogre strategy, too, even with a die.
This confuses me. Why don't you throw the chit back in the cup after each selection to maintain the same randomness?
Misplaced Buckeye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2016, 02:26 PM   #6
Netzilla
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: St. Louis, MO
Default Re: Reducing or removing randomness

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwalend View Post
The side that runs through the chits first usually wins. That lesson flows out to Ogre strategy, too, even with a die.
"He who rolls the most dice, wins."
-- unremembered author speaking of a completely different wargame
Netzilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2016, 02:29 PM   #7
Netzilla
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: St. Louis, MO
Default Re: Reducing or removing randomness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplaced Buckeye View Post
This confuses me. Why don't you throw the chit back in the cup after each selection to maintain the same randomness?
The goal is to reduce randomness.
Netzilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2016, 03:35 PM   #8
johndallman
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Default Re: Reducing or removing randomness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplaced Buckeye View Post
This confuses me. Why don't you throw the chit back in the cup after each selection to maintain the same randomness?
The idea isn't to emulate dice - or you'd just use dice - but to eliminate the runs of high or low numbers that pure randomness produces over the short term.

It's a method for ensuring, in effect, that the dice roll each possible number the same number of times during the game. So if you have six of each chit, and you don't throw them back, you're ensuring that you will get six ones, six twos, and so on, and you can't get the seventh of any number before you've had six of all the numbers, and put all the chits back in the cup.
johndallman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.