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Old 05-06-2021, 10:43 AM   #21
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: GURPS Overhaul: Combat Skills, Take 3

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Originally Posted by Tyneras View Post
Now, if I am just being stubborn and getting hung up on naming conventions, then using your convention I think my proposal would be translated as:
Melee Weapon (1 Handed)
Melee Weapon (2 Handed Balanced)
Melee Weapon (2 Handed Unbalanced)
Melee Weapon (Reach Weapons)
I haven't used polearms, but it seems like bastard swords should effectively be one skill regardless if how many hands you use. The training for using them either way didn't seem any worse than when I did fencing. I'd suggest there is usually overlap between 1 hand and 2 hand training within the same weapon family.

Would reach include bare-handed attacks? Boxing gloves, brass knuckles, and saps generally fall under brawling. Proper knife fighting has its own unique style, but I see a lot of wild/basic use that's more like brawling.

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I do think Whip, Garotte, Net and Shield don't have enough overlap to be grouped under a master skill like the above. Garrote is such an oddball I'm never quite satisfied no matter where I put it.
I get the impression that garrotes aren't really used during combat. If you don't succeed in your ambush, they are usually discarded in favor of something else. Anyway, I'd still lump them under other forms of strangulation (aka grappling).

Net is odd, but you could probably create one more skill category for flexible weapons then lump rope, lasso, whip, and flail under that.

Last edited by naloth; 05-06-2021 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 05-06-2021, 11:00 AM   #22
naloth
 
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Default Re: GURPS Overhaul: Combat Skills, Take 3

My revised break down for melee would probably be more like (all DX/A):

Flexible (net, whip, lasso, flail, cloak)
Non-Flexible (sword, axe, polearm, spear, staff)*
Brawling (fist, range C weapons)
Grappling (including tools for strangling)
Shield (including buckler)

*Yes, seems overly broad. I haven't have a good split that allows for appropriate cross-training where it should be plausible.

Within each skill you specialize in one weapon type. All weapons that share that skill default from your primary at -5. That can be bought off as an average technique (1 point to remove -1) per weapon type up to no penalty.

Of course, I'm not sure this solves anything. A knight that trains with knife (Brawling), wrestling (Grappling), sword (Non-Flexible), and a flail (Flexible) still ends up buying every skill instead of cross-training off of anything.
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Old 05-06-2021, 11:01 AM   #23
Tyneras
 
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Default Re: GURPS Overhaul: Combat Skills, Take 3

I think it got forgotten in the shuffle, but I mentioned a weapon specific specialization idea that would be good to weapons that cross multiple skill categories, such as swords that have 1 or 2 handed use or spears that can be used as a 2 handed weapon or a reach weapon. So Melee Weapon (Swords) would give full skill for 1h and 2h swords, but not for 1h or 2h axes. Maybe a DX/E super specialization for Specialist Melee Weapon (Broadsword) that wouldn't give skill for any other sword, but cover all broadsword use cases.

I generally consider the Reach category to include anything with a reach greater than 2+SM reach bonus, so 3 or greater for humans. So some polearms wouldn't qualify but others would, and some giant horse killer sords would definitely be Reach Weapons.

So if you had a Halberd and Melee Weapon (2 Handed Unbalanced) but didn't have Melee Weapon (Reach) then you could use it at reach 2 for full skill, or extend it to reach 3 and accept the skill penalty.
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Old 05-06-2021, 11:22 AM   #24
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Default Re: GURPS Overhaul: Combat Skills, Take 3

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
While interesting, I really don't like having to look up or memorize a bunch of defaults on top of everything else. I'd much rather have a few skills that have (standard) defaults to each other then use techniques inside groups. It would look something like:
These divisions can also work. Striking and Grappling should probably be DX/E (still not crazy about separating these when Melee Weapon skills include armed grappling, but them being DX/E makes the separation more palatable). You may also want to define exactly what skills Melee Weapon is divided into - is Tonfa a separate skill from Sword or just a Familiarity? What about 1H vs 2H? Spear vs Staff vs Polearm? I've also previously considered using Techniques to buy off penalties for defaults, but that can rapidly run afoul of various nuances - you rapidly reach the point where it's more worthwhile to just increase the base skill rather than the Techniques.

Of course, it does now occur to me that Techniques are completely unaddressed in my system. I'm tempted to not require Techniques to be purchased on a per-skill basis, but rather have any relevant Technique work for all Trained skills, and possibly combine this with applying the Dabbler Approach to Techniques. Or maybe just use the Dabbler Approach all-out - knowing the same Technique with two skills is [+1] to cost over having it for just one, four skills is [+2], etc, and the same is the case for different Techniques for the same skill (or even different skills). I'll have to give it some thought.

Do you intend to have Thrown Weapon (which I lump Sling and Atlatl into, as seen in my first post) be a subset of Ranged Weapon, or its own thing? I feel thrown weapons are used quite a bit differently from firearms and bows and the like, although I do agree some default between them (for leading moving targets and the like) may be appropriate.

Also, I should note that there my system was meant to be easy to "get" without needing to look things up. Everything defaults to everything else at around -5 (with exceptions for different skill difficulties, but most are the same skill) or -3 if two skills are more similar to each other (sword and spear are both balanced; sword and axe are used similarly; axe and polearm are both unbalanced; spear and polearm are used similarly; unarmed combat and using a shield are fairly similar). However, if you prefer things to be a bit more cut and dried, everything defaulting to everything else at -4 certainly works.

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Originally Posted by Tyneras View Post
Garrote is such an oddball I'm never quite satisfied no matter where I put it.
I feel garrotes are best thought of as grappling aids, and should be included in any skill for unarmed grapples.

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Originally Posted by Tyneras View Post
I think it got forgotten in the shuffle, but I mentioned a weapon specific specialization idea that would be good to weapons that cross multiple skill categories, such as swords that have 1 or 2 handed use or spears that can be used as a 2 handed weapon or a reach weapon. So Melee Weapon (Swords) would give full skill for 1h and 2h swords, but not for 1h or 2h axes. Maybe a DX/E super specialization for Specialist Melee Weapon (Broadsword) that wouldn't give skill for any other sword, but cover all broadsword use cases.
This is something I've also considered. Instead of just 1H vs 2H, an Optional Specialization for Sword could be 1.5H (Hand-and-a-Half) Sword, covering weapons that are transitional between 1H and 2H. So this would work for bastard swords, longswords, katana, etc, but you'd be at -2 to use a shortsword or greatsword. Similarly, Spear could have a Stab Only Optional Specialization, which functions like the RAW Spear skill (not allowing for staff's enhanced Parry or swinging with the haft); this could be taken still further, to 1H Stab Only, a DX/E skill that is a specialization of a specialization, and would be ideal for teaching to peasant levies alongside Buckler (or whatever type of shield your army prefers).

Part of me does like the idea of importing Weapon Focus from That Other Game, for a bonus to using a particular weapon design. Maybe it could cost [2] per +1, to a maximum of +2 or so (I'd be tempted to just call it a Perk, but that steps on the toes of Weapon Bond). Combined with lack of cross-training, you could get a pretty respectable level for cheap, but be in trouble if your preferred weapon isn't available and/or the enemy is using a different type of weapon.
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Old 05-06-2021, 11:38 AM   #25
DouglasCole
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Default Re: GURPS Overhaul: Combat Skills, Take 3

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
I'd throw garrote under range C grappling
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Garrote is such an oddball I'm never quite satisfied no matter where I put it.
I'd make it a grappling technique as well.
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Old 05-06-2021, 11:41 AM   #26
DouglasCole
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Default Re: GURPS Overhaul: Combat Skills, Take 3

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Similarly, Spear could have a Stab Only Optional Specialization, which functions like the RAW Spear skill (not allowing for staff's enhanced Parry or swinging with the haft); this could be taken still further, to 1H Stab Only, a DX/E skill that is a specialization of a specialization, and would be ideal for teaching to peasant levies alongside Buckler (or whatever type of shield your army prefers).
For what it's worth, I spent over an hour on one-handed spear this past Tuesday...and wow. It's HARD. Much harder, and much different, than 2H spear. I would not have guessed this.
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Old 05-06-2021, 12:00 PM   #27
Tyneras
 
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Default Re: GURPS Overhaul: Combat Skills, Take 3

While Garrote feels like a natural fit for grappling, it was pointed out to me by several people in the discord server that a garrote can be used without any knowledge of grappling. It's such an odd, quirky weapon and skill that's part of many things but also stands on it's own.
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Old 05-06-2021, 12:04 PM   #28
DouglasCole
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Default Re: GURPS Overhaul: Combat Skills, Take 3

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While Garrote feels like a natural fit for grappling, it was pointed out to me by several people in the discord server that a garrote can be used without any knowledge of grappling. It's such an odd, quirky weapon and skill that's part of many things but also stands on it's own.
*Grappling* can be used with no knowledge of grappling. You can grapple and punch at DX.
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Old 05-06-2021, 12:09 PM   #29
Tyneras
 
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Default Re: GURPS Overhaul: Combat Skills, Take 3

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*Grappling* can be used with no knowledge of grappling. You can grapple and punch at DX.
Yeah. There are a bunch of "intrinsic skills" that effective have a default of DX-0 like that, jumping, punching, grabbing, etc. The thrust of the argument though is you can get better at garrote without getting better at grappling.
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Old 05-06-2021, 12:15 PM   #30
DouglasCole
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Default Re: GURPS Overhaul: Combat Skills, Take 3

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Yeah. There are a bunch of "intrinsic skills" that effective have a default of DX-0 like that, jumping, punching, grabbing, etc. The thrust of the argument though is you can get better at garrote without getting better at grappling.
I'd submit that makes it a technique more akin to Arm Lock, where it only goes up. So you basically take your Garotte technique and add it to best of DX or a grappling skill.
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