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12-05-2023, 11:06 AM   #121
whswhs

Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
Re: supers: nine options

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anthony For 3e, the ranks and measures table amounts to mass = 50 * 2^rank time = 6s * 2*rank distance = 30' * 2^rank volume = 2^rank cf Just change that to, say, 10^(rank/10) (decibels) and it's a whole lot less cinematic in its scaling with very little that needs changing elsewhere.
Interesting. Basically you're just multiplying the ranks that correspond to a given physical magnitude factor by 3.
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Bill Stoddard

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12-05-2023, 11:21 AM   #122
Anthony

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Re: supers: nine options

Quote:
 Originally Posted by whswhs Interesting. Basically you're just multiplying the ranks that correspond to a given physical magnitude factor by 3.
Yeah. The core mechanic isn't inherently cinematic, it's just a d20 test against a target number, it just comes down to how you set the modifiers.

You can also make it less cinematic by changing to something with a smaller variance than a d20; switching to 3d6 is equivalent to roughly halving modifiers.
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Last edited by Anthony; 12-05-2023 at 11:24 AM.

12-05-2023, 01:55 PM   #123
whswhs

Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
Re: supers: nine options

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anthony Yeah. The core mechanic isn't inherently cinematic, it's just a d20 test against a target number, it just comes down to how you set the modifiers. You can also make it less cinematic by changing to something with a smaller variance than a d20; switching to 3d6 is equivalent to roughly halving modifiers.
Are these things that could be done with the second edition? What would have to be differently handled to do so?
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Bill Stoddard

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12-05-2023, 02:08 PM   #124
Anthony

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Re: supers: nine options

Quote:
 Originally Posted by whswhs Are these things that could be done with the second edition? What would have to be differently handled to do so?
2e was a bit inconsistent with its scaling (non-super strength actually used the D&D 3.5e scaling, which is 2.5x slower than the super-strength scaling); I think the bigger problem you were having with 2e was its PL rules, which 3e relaxed by a lot (you can trade increased PL in one area for reduced in another, and detach point levels from PL).

I would note that a surprisingly large part of M&M 3e is open game content; as far as I know https://www.d20herosrd.com/ is legal (I recommend an ad blocker, though).
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Last edited by Anthony; 12-05-2023 at 02:12 PM.

 12-05-2023, 02:49 PM #125 whswhs   Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Lawrence, KS Re: supers: nine options Well, power levels and limits were an initial hangup, but once I saw that you could buy super-strength separately they were less of an issue. A second issue was that a x1000 multiplier was only 10 levels, which meant that a character had to be incredibly strong to gain much of an advantage in combat. But the really crucial issue may have been that the same die roll could give you any outcome from no effect to unconscious (or unconscious + dying); against an average human punch, for example, the toughness save was 15, and on a d20 you had a 30% chance of no effect, a 25% chance of bruised, a 25% chance of bruised + stunned, and a 20% chance of staggered + stunned, while a character with five levels of strike had 5%, 25%, 25%, 25%, and then a 20% chance of unconscious. On one hand buying powers didn't seem to make all that much difference, and on the other the range of variability seemed very high—a character with no powers and one with a fairly substantial superpunch both still had a 25% chance of inflicting a bruise and nothing else. Your suggestion of going over to 3d6 gives us 9%, 53%, 36%, and 2% in the first case, and 0%, 9%, 53%, 36%, and 2% in the second: the ordinary punch typically bruises a foe and never knocks him out, whereas the superpunch typically bruises and stuns him and never leaves him uninjured. That does seem like an improvement in verisimilitude. __________________ Bill Stoddard I don't think we're in Oz any more.
 12-05-2023, 04:23 PM #126 whswhs   Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Lawrence, KS Re: supers: nine options Looking in another direction, have any of you looked at the Hero System sixth edition Basic book? I'm wondering how suitable it would be for use by itself, and particularly how good its coverage of powers is. I hesitate to invest in two substantial volumes, but I might go for one compact book—but not if its compaction is at the expense of actual playability. __________________ Bill Stoddard I don't think we're in Oz any more.
12-05-2023, 04:50 PM   #127
Anthony

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Re: supers: nine options

Quote:
 Originally Posted by whswhs But the really crucial issue may have been that the same die roll could give you any outcome from no effect to unconscious (or unconscious + dying)
I don't actually consider that part cinematic. It's a bit off for unarmed combat, but for weapons there's actually an immense amount of randomness.

In practice the system winds up being ablative anyway, because PCs just spend hero points to reroll really bad saves.

I recall reading through hero 6e, but I don't know where my copy went and I haven't played with it much. The most important change was probably eliminating figured characteristics (they're now just bought up from a base as if you had a primary attribute of 10). Not sure how much is in the basic rules, but the power system is similar enough that you could just use your existing books from 4e or 5e and things will be fine.
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Last edited by Anthony; 12-05-2023 at 04:57 PM.

12-05-2023, 05:22 PM   #128
whswhs

Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
Re: supers: nine options

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anthony I don't actually consider that part cinematic. It's a bit off for unarmed combat, but for weapons there's actually an immense amount of randomness.
Yes, but superheroic narratives tend to focus on unarmed combat.

Quote:
 I recall reading through hero 6e, but I don't know where my copy went and I haven't played with it much. The most important change was probably eliminating figured characteristics (they're now just bought up from a base as if you had a primary attribute of 10). Not sure how much is in the basic rules, but the power system is similar enough that you could just use your existing books from 4e or 5e and things will be fine.
It's specifically the Basic rules I'm focused on. If I were to run a campaign in the future my players might want to use the current edition, rather than tracking down older editions; I'm wondering if the Basic rules give a solid enough treatment of the current edition's mechanics.
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Bill Stoddard

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 04-28-2024, 05:48 PM #129 whswhs   Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Lawrence, KS Re: supers: nine options I've been looking further at the sixth edition of Hero System, and I see problems with its treatment of speed. Consider a character who has 3m of added running, total 15m, and has SPD 8. The running costs 3 points; the SPD costs 60. Moving at combat speed, they can cover 120m in a turn, or 600m in a minute. At noncombat speed, this is doubled to 1200m in a minute, which is just about 45 mph. That's not much by the usual superheroic scale, but it's respectable, I suppose. The problem is that it costs 1 END to move 5" (in the old system), which I take it is 10m in the new one. So at combat speed they spend 12 END per turn; at noncombat speed, 24 END. Raising their END to 25 costs only 1 point, but that's just enough for them to run for one turn; in the second turn they'll collapse. Or we can buy up their REC to 24 for 20 points; that lets them keep running indefinitely. So we just spent 84 points for the ability to run at 45 mph. For 80 points they could buy the ability to lift 6400 tonnes! What if we want them to run at a more impressive speed? Well, for 10 points, they can have a x8 noncombat multiple. Now they run at 180 mph, which is respectably superheroic. But we've also quadrupled their END cost, to 96/turn. So they need to spend another 72 points to buy up their REC, and 15 points to get to END 100. They've now spent 171 points, and they still aren't even breaking the sound barrier. Don't even think about writing up Barry Allen . . . I just don't think that the Hero System handles speedsters adequately. And they're one of the basic types. __________________ Bill Stoddard I don't think we're in Oz any more.
04-28-2024, 06:35 PM   #130
corwyn

Join Date: Aug 2004
Re: supers: nine options

Quote:
 Originally Posted by whswhs I've been looking further at the sixth edition of Hero System, and I see problems with its treatment of speed. Consider a character who has 3m of added running, total 15m, and has SPD 8. The running costs 3 points; the SPD costs 60. Moving at combat speed, they can cover 120m in a turn, or 600m in a minute. At noncombat speed, this is doubled to 1200m in a minute, which is just about 45 mph. That's not much by the usual superheroic scale, but it's respectable, I suppose. The problem is that it costs 1 END to move 5" (in the old system), which I take it is 10m in the new one. So at combat speed they spend 12 END per turn; at noncombat speed, 24 END. Raising their END to 25 costs only 1 point, but that's just enough for them to run for one turn; in the second turn they'll collapse. Or we can buy up their REC to 24 for 20 points; that lets them keep running indefinitely. So we just spent 84 points for the ability to run at 45 mph. For 80 points they could buy the ability to lift 6400 tonnes! What if we want them to run at a more impressive speed? Well, for 10 points, they can have a x8 noncombat multiple. Now they run at 180 mph, which is respectably superheroic. But we've also quadrupled their END cost, to 96/turn. So they need to spend another 72 points to buy up their REC, and 15 points to get to END 100. They've now spent 171 points, and they still aren't even breaking the sound barrier. Don't even think about writing up Barry Allen . . . I just don't think that the Hero System handles speedsters adequately. And they're one of the basic types.
Wouldn't reducing end on running be more efficient, or have they changed that in 6e?
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