Throwing a punch without a skill

[talonthehand]

Originally Posted by Plane

I'm still trying to get my head around why I could bite a face as easily as I could punch or grab a face, the latter two seem like more natural actions.

Also seems like biting doesn't really make you any more vulnerable unless someone happens to have an 'Aggressive Parry' technique, even though logically trying to lung face-first at someone is probably going to end up getting punched there.

In "Matter of Inches" bite and punch are equated in same range though.

Imagine that you're a dog and biting makes more sense.

[Willy]

Originally Posted by Plane

Also seems like biting doesn't really make you any more vulnerable unless someone happens to have an 'Aggressive Parry' technique, even though logically trying to lung face-first at someone is probably going to end up getting punched there.

Depends on how you bite, humans teeth aren´t sharp to get the best effect you have to chew and not release the bite. That means your face is fixed in the position to your enemy, a bad position for you because it´s quite hard to parry or dodge. Worse the opponent knows exactly where your face is, even if you are behind him. Even if you bite and release, the most vulnerable body parts are coming closer to the enemy compared to a punch or knee strike, kicking in close combat ( same hex ) is for experts.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by talonthehand

Imagine that you're a dog and biting makes more sense.

MA115 gives Horizontal creatures a damage bonus to headbutt which does seem to make sense to me (dogs seem to headbutt balls back to humans pretty instinctively when thrown overhead)

Maybe this head-first posture could also give a bonus to hit with both butts and bites?

Originally Posted by Willy

Depends on how you bite, humans teeth aren´t sharp to get the best effect you have to chew and not release the bite. That means your face is fixed in the position to your enemy, a bad position for you because it´s quite hard to parry or dodge.

In theory yes but I don't know what represents that difficulty in GURPS terms.

Basic Set seems to prevent parrying with an arm you are using to grapple, but you wouldn't be using your mouth to parry anyway.

Originally Posted by Willy

Worse the opponent knows exactly where your face is, even if you are behind him.

Cole in TG22 introduced the idea of ignoring the usual -2 to defend against side/rear attacks due to the acute awareness of a grappled/grappling opponent (though apparently this requires at least 1 CP by one or the other, might not apply to mutual 0 CP sitations)

This is written under Hands-Free parries though so I don't know if it refers to ignoring the -2 for other types of parries.

Plus it doesn't really seem to cover the idea of your grappled part being easier to hit.

Originally Posted by Willy

Even if you bite and release, the most vulnerable body parts are coming closer to the enemy compared to a punch or knee strike, kicking in close combat ( same hex ) is for experts.

The closest I can recall to this crunch-wise is the special GURPS Zombies rule about ignoring the -4 to bite a hand if you try to grapple a zombie's head or neck and miss.

I guess it would also make sense to ignore a -5 to bite a face if you try to grapple a zombie's head or neck using your teeth and miss.

That probably didn't come up in GZ since one doesn't tend to bite zombies.

As for the 'misses only' policy, I imagine that's because if a hand has grappled something other than the mouth you'd first have to detach the hand to bite the hand.

If not for that, one would think "I know the hand is on my body part and it's easy to hit your own body part" would give some form of advantage in hitting it.

I think if I connect some dots in Technical Grappling there could be a solution here:

1) TG 21 notes that attacks to improve control of an existing grapple do not suffer hit location penalties (TG 16 possibly only with Incrementing weapons which presumably includes hands)

2) TG 39 allows the Retain Weapon technique to be used as an attack to improve grip CP on a weapon (presumably also without any penalties for hit locations)

3) TG 7 "Objects and weapons gripped by a hand are considered
part of that hand."

If we extrapolate from a "Weapons are Characters" approach, I think it would stand to reason that this could apply to "hands gripped by hands" too.

More broadly though: instead of a hands-only approach, perhaps it could apply to any grappling mechanism: if I'm grappling a weapon with my teeth for example, then perhaps it should count as part of my jaw/face and any CP appleid to the weapon should apply DX penalties to stuff I do with my head?

Now here's the rub about self-targeting... aren't you essentially "grappling" (in a cooperative way) any body part via any parts attached to it?

IE my right arm is grappling my right hand

The right arm can't actually "grab" the right hand (alternative view: it can't "let go" or the arm would fall off) but perhaps it has "Control Points" established which could be spent to influence your own limb movement.

EG: if my right arm has 5 Control Points on my Right Hand, then per TG5's "Spending CP" I could either..

(bullet 2/4) spend CP to hurt myself more (instead of punching my right hand using my left hand's power alone, I use my right arm to thrust my right hand toward my left hand, increasing damage)

(bullet 4/4) spend CP to make it easier to target my self (use my right arm's CP on my right hand to guide my right hand toward my left hand's punch)

Unfortunately this doesn't aid with grappling accuracy, even TG24's Pass Limb. About the only help it seems to be is with winning contests like Feints so you can penalize defenses, but that only helps if you can hit in the first place...

I was thinking something like ignoring blindness penalties, because you don't really need to see where someone's hand is if you can feel where it is because you're already grabbing the hand or the hand is grabbing you.

I think maybe allowing CP to be spent to reduce grappling penalties to 0 (just as it can reduce striking penalties to half) wouldn't be too off-base.

The only thing I'm wondering is maybe since CP is more linearly linked to ST than to DX (if you use TG9's Bigger and Stronger) that perhaps the amount of CP that must be spent to influence DX rolls should actually be the amount required to inflict DX penalties?

Originally Posted by Willy

Even if you bite and release, the most vulnerable body parts are coming closer to the enemy compared to a punch or knee strike, kicking in close combat ( same hex ) is for experts.

That seems to be a 3e thing that didn't carry over, because instead of it being exclusive to karate at -1 damage now everyone can do C-range kicks with equal accuracy.

I'd prefer to do something like the 'wrap shots' rule for long weapons (-4 to hit) if you're fixated on "I must make foot contact with something less than 1 yard away"

We do after all allow a pseudo "knee strike" using Kicking already, which is a kick for all purposes except which part you hit with.

Given there is a "shin kick" I could see letting that do close-range hits with less trouble (maybe -2 to hit and -1 to Leg Parry?) while using the knee/thigh is only -1 to hit

You can ignore the basic -2 to kicking if you're lying down, does that also mean ignoring the -1 for knee attack?

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Plane

I'm still trying to get my head around why I could bite a face as easily as I could punch or grab a face, the latter two seem like more natural actions.

Ask a feral toddler about biting vs. kicking/punching or grappling. It's a much more effective attack for small creatures with relatively short limbs.

For an adult human, punching is the more "instinctual" attack response, in part because humans are socialized to NOT bite from an early age and also because Biting requires you to move in to Close Combat (Reach C). For untrained fighters, that might require a Will roll and is effectively an All-Out Attack.

[lugaid]

Since you're specifically talking about an untrained scientist, you might also want to consider the "Untrained Fighters" sidebar on p. 113 of Martial Arts. Brawling at DX is better than untrained DX.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by lugaid

Since you're specifically talking about an untrained scientist, you might also want to consider the "Untrained Fighters" sidebar on p. 113 of Martial Arts. Brawling at DX is better than untrained DX.

Plus we could more generous in handing out levels out of the "Noncombatant" anti-talent as a baseline in sedentary societies.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Ask a feral toddler about biting vs. kicking/punching or grappling. It's a much more effective attack for small creatures with relatively short limbs.

Wouldn't a toddler still tend to (perhaps like a zombie) first initiate a grapple (using hands) on a target prior to biting it?

That's essentially achieving Control Points and then spending them to partially offset a Hit Location penalty since bites take full penalties as strikes and not half penalties as grapples, despite carrying a grapple on a success.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

For an adult human, punching is the more "instinctual" attack response, in part because humans are socialized to NOT bite from an early age and also because Biting requires you to move in to Close Combat (Reach C).

As of 4e you also need Reach C to do punches though, I've only seen Reach 1 options for punches in a couple places in 3e.

Although 4e has AOA (Long) to get +1 reach, I've only seen Elbow Strike excluded from that benefit, not Bite (though they seem like logical candidates... my elbows can collectively (though perhaps not when targeting the opposite side) reach further than my mouth in all directions.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Plane

Wouldn't a toddler still tend to (perhaps like a zombie) first initiate a grapple (using hands) on a target prior to biting it?

Not necessarily - some of the little demons know that trying to grab with their hands (and legs) is an obvious tell, so just go for the bite from the beginning.

That said, for humans, biting should be shorter-reach than punching, it's just that a) Martial Arts kinda screwed the pooch when it put bites and punches at the same sub-reach in "A Matter of Inches" and b) even if those were properly set, in most combat it's just Reach C vs Reach C, which are indistinguishable. The reach difference between a bite and a punch are simply below GURPS resolution (just like the reach difference between a shortsword and a broadsword).

[kate_unknown]

I would say it is much easier to track your enemy with your head than with your fist, so even if they have the better ability to dodge, you have the better ability to hone in on them, so it evens out.