Sectarianism in DF

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by ericthered

are you saying good and evil aren't real?

Yes, I am. In my humble opinion, they are both elements of fantasy fiction.

Originally Posted by ericthered

Many people believe otherwise, though it can be hard to pin down exact lines, even for those who believe in it.

That's fine. I'm not here to convert anybody.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

No. I'm not going to add that because it isn't relevant in a setting where Good and Evil actually exist as supernatural forces.

I tend to go with "Good" and "Evil" being explicit definable supernatural things, which align to some extent with the philosophical concepts of good and evil.

The Good god is pretty good, but detection etc. interact with the magic, not the philosophy.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

Yes, I am. In my humble opinion, they are both elements of fantasy fiction..

You know this IS fantasy fiction we're talking about right?

[b-dog]

Another option could be that clerics who serve the Good God get their powers through their worship and prayers and not their actions. Thus they pray and regain their spells without consequence as to what they do with them unless they are serving evil. They can fight against rival faiths and call other good faiths heretics and they can still regain their spells as long as they perform their rituals and religious obligations. This could be described as letting people have free will to do what they want because they will get their reward/punishment in the afterlife.

[simply Nathan]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

Having "good" and "evil" as external cosmological constants is somewhat jarring once you get outside the cheesier end of fantasy.

How much queso would you say Narnia has? Internally-consistent and externally-constant Good isn't that hard if you stick with monotheism.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by simply Nathan

How much queso would you say Narnia has? Internally-consistent and externally-constant Good isn't that hard if you stick with monotheism.

Once you are explicitly monotheist, you do indeed struggle to separate the good from the divine (and are by definition wrong if you succeed) - but again, this brings us back to good because it is favoured of God, not favoured of God because it is good.
In Narnia, to do the will of Aslan is to be good (this is explicitly pointed out in ?Prince Caspian), there is no external "Good" to which Aslan conforms in order to be defined as a good god.
In fantasy cheese there are (poorly) defined external concepts of "law", "chaos", "evil" and "good" ... and from time to horrible time "neutrality" to which everything aligns to some degree or another and which can be measured and detected with magic. And that is jarring.

[joppeknol]

Originally Posted by simply Nathan

How much queso would you say Narnia has? Internally-consistent and externally-constant Good isn't that hard if you stick with monotheism.

I'm not sure I understand this comment. I would just like to point out that when I read Narnia part 7 to my daughter, she was appalled when Aslan removed the speech from animals who weren't worthy enough when he apocalypsed Narnia. She explicitly said she thought Aslan was mean.

Just saying that Aslan is a good example of how the definition of good can be interpreted differently by people

Of course, you can play 'good' or 'evil' in your setting, and have a set of beliefs/rules define it. It might even be fun to make good not align with the beliefs of the player.

[tshiggins]

Originally Posted by joppeknol

I'm not sure I understand this comment. I would just like to point out that when I read Narnia part 7 to my daughter, she was appalled when Aslan removed the speech from animals who weren't worthy enough when he apocalypsed Narnia. She explicitly said she thought Aslan was mean.

Just saying that Aslan is a good example of how the definition of good can be interpreted differently by people

Of course, you can play 'good' or 'evil' in your setting, and have a set of beliefs/rules define it. It might even be fun to make good not align with the beliefs of the player.

I mostly agree with your daughter. I started to read the Chronicles of Narnia in my early teens. I was 15 when I finished them, and I never wanted to read them, again.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

Once you are explicitly monotheist, you do indeed struggle to separate the good from the divine (and are by definition wrong if you succeed) - but again, this brings us back to good because it is favoured of God, not favoured of God because it is good.

I don't know that it's true that the answer has to come down that way. But it does suggest an interesting question about variations. Can you build a setting where there is only one true god, who is Evil?

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by malloyd

I don't know that it's true that the answer has to come down that way. But it does suggest an interesting question about variations. Can you build a setting where there is only one true god, who is Evil?

Now that is a intriguing line of thought.

I know the lord of the rings wasn't written with one true evil and no true good, but sometimes it really feels that way. Evil has a power and while good may be around its so invisible as to not feel like a force. The elves and the dwarves don't like each other, various grudges are hanging around, and yet evil itself seems to have power.

another alternative is that the one true god is like a cat and likes to play with victims before killing them off.