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Old 06-05-2016, 06:01 PM   #1
Tallor
 
Join Date: May 2016
Default 3e Ship Chassis -> 4e Armor?

While reading through the GURPS: WWII book (the main one, with the red cover), I saw the very cool list of ship sizes ranging from Raft to Heavy Battleship.

It got me wondering--if you converted these to 4e stats, what's the average DR each would have? What about weight?
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Old 06-05-2016, 07:08 PM   #2
weby
 
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Default Re: 3e Ship Chassis -> 4e Armor?

The definition of DR has not changed between editions it is still 70 points for one inch of RHA.

But the WWII books have higher armor values as base mostly than High Tech. As example see the 2 tanks listed in both:

Panzer IV Ausf H is exactly the same tank in both
High tech: hull: 280f/105s turret: 175f/155s
WWII core: Hull 315f/120s turret:200f/120s

The sherman is slightly different versions:
High tech: M4A1(76)W: hull: 210f/105s turret: 210f/140s
WWII core: M-4A1: hull: 300f/150s turret: 300f/200s

The funny thing being the huge difference in the Sherman and the small in the PZ IV.

As for weight: Real world weights of things do not change in editions...

The really big change in the editions is the hit points. The 3rd edition had big things too durable usually and the 4th edition has them too fragile. Both of those are due to the hit point scaling used in them.
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Old 06-05-2016, 07:21 PM   #3
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: 3e Ship Chassis -> 4e Armor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by weby View Post
The definition of DR has not changed between editions it is still 70 points for one inch of RHA.

But the WWII books have higher armor values as base mostly than High Tech. As example see the 2 tanks listed in both:
The problem is that 1" of RHA does not equal DR 70 in the WWII books. Why? I haven't heard a good answer but the latest claim is that it was deliberate.

No, there isn't even a good way to convert that I know of. The WWII armor stats are just income-partible with the rest of Gurps 3e and 4e.
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Old 06-05-2016, 07:27 PM   #4
Balor Patch
 
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Default Re: 3e Ship Chassis -> 4e Armor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallor View Post
While reading through the GURPS: WWII book (the main one, with the red cover), I saw the very cool list of ship sizes ranging from Raft to Heavy Battleship.

It got me wondering--if you converted these to 4e stats, what's the average DR each would have? What about weight?
To some extent large warships are so complex that they shouldn't have DR or HP for the whole object any more than a city block should. That said the hull plating is likely about 1 inch, so DR 70. For a BB, the main belt will be 12"-14", which would add 840-980 DR if it was RHA. I am unsure whether call it Hardened, increase the DR, or do both to reflect that it was made of the best face-hardened steel available. The deck armor could be estimated at 6" (DR 420) over the magazines, 4" (DR 280) over the machinery, and 1" outside the citadel.

That still oversimplifies a lot but is probably about as reasonable as you can do, and can be extrapolated to smaller ships.

Weight of a WW2 BB can probably be averaged at 40K tons normal displacement (a bit more than Standard displacement). The ones left from WW1 would probably be closer to 35K. The armor itself is 40lb per 1" per square foot.
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Old 06-05-2016, 07:58 PM   #5
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: 3e Ship Chassis -> 4e Armor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balor Patch View Post
For a BB, the main belt will be 12"-14", which would add 840-980 DR if it was RHA. I am unsure whether call it Hardened, increase the DR, or do both to reflect that it was made of the best face-hardened steel available. .
A better grade of steel is represented by more DR per inch. Maybe 20% or so. the best and latest source for how much is probably David Pulver's article in Pyramid 3/85. It has a TL6 "Hard steel" at DR 82/inch.

That's still a single generic value for what could have been multiple Real World types of metal..

But no, you wouldn't do anything as radical s give it Hardened. A Real world armorer would do a lot for 20% more DR. What could be effectively doubling protection from AP rounds would make him weak in the knees.
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Old 06-06-2016, 05:47 PM   #6
Tallor
 
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Default Re: 3e Ship Chassis -> 4e Armor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balor Patch View Post
...
To some extent large warships are so complex that they shouldn't have DR or HP for the whole object any more than a city block should. That said the hull plating is likely about 1 inch, so DR 70. For a BB, the main belt will be 12"-14", which would add 840-980 DR if it was RHA. I am unsure whether call it Hardened, increase the DR, or do both to reflect that it was made of the best face-hardened steel available. The deck armor could be estimated at 6" (DR 420) over the magazines, 4" (DR 280) over the machinery, and 1" outside the citadel.

That still oversimplifies a lot but is probably about as reasonable as you can do, and can be extrapolated to smaller ships.

Weight of a WW2 BB can probably be averaged at 40K tons normal displacement (a bit more than Standard displacement). The ones left from WW1 would probably be closer to 35K. The armor itself is 40lb per 1" per square foot.
So what you're trying to say is...

BB-38 "Super Dreadnaught" -- Heavy Battleship

PART -- inches --- DR
Hull ------ 1" ------- 70
Belt --- 12-14" --- 840-980
Mags ---- 6" ------ 420
Mach. --- 4" ------- 280

Raw Weight in Book: 2,143 long tons
Historical Weight: 31,400
Raw Weight to Historical Weight: 1,465%+, or about x15 after armor and equipment.

That's what I put together anyways!
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Old 06-06-2016, 07:05 PM   #7
mlangsdorf
 
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Default Re: 3e Ship Chassis -> 4e Armor?

What book are you referencing for that BB-38 design? There's a BB-61 in Motor Pool, with a loaded weight of 64000 tons and a payload of 12400 tons. 2100 tons is a WWII destroyer and I'd be surprised if any GURPS book was off by that much.
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