Getting back into GURPS. Help/Suggestions?

apoc527 · 11-07-2011, 11:53 PM

It's been...a long, long time. I'm seriously pondering getting back into GURPS after swearing it off in frustration about 9 years ago. How different is 4th Edition? How does it run? Can you get that signature GURPS realism without bogging down play? In the interim, we've been playing Alternity, Mongoose Traveller, various editions of D&D (3.0, 3.5, a tiny bit of 4, which was a tiny bit too much), and some Mongoose RuneQuest 2. All are great games, all have their foibles and weaknesses.

Back in the day, we played GURPS exclusively. What eventually killed it for me was the difficulty in GMing. In short, it took too much time to prepare almost anything. Designing a vehicle in GURPS 3rd Edition...forget it. 4th Edition seems different and I've picked up several books as references for other games (that's what happens when you have the best researched RPG supplements!).

I want to try running a GURPS "Fallout" type game (not actually Fallout, though I did find the excellent Fallout conversion online). I have all three Ultra, High, and Low Tech books (see aforementioned reference comment). I am thinking of just biting the bullet and getting the two Core books.

How much effort will it take to stat up some NPCs? How long to explain to GURPS neophytes how to make a PC?

In short, what will I gain with GURPS 4th Edition over the other games I listed above (we're mostly on Mongoose Traveller and RuneQuest right now). I will say this for GURPS--about half my players don't like the Traveller random chargen. Those guys will love GURPS's control over character design. The others may get overwhelmed. Do you have any suggestions for selling GURPS to those who enjoy the ease of Traveller chargen?

Sorry for the many random thoughts, but I am not quite sure where to begin.

Thanks for ANY insight that anybody might offer!

Refplace · 11-08-2011, 12:31 AM

Hand out GURPS Lite to everyone.
Even if you already know most of the system it will help them and cut down on the questions you have to field.
Also read the Update PDF. Free and might give you a good idea of some of the differences.
Mostly I would say its pretty much the same but a bit tightened up. Its very recognizable to 2e and 3e but they condensed and consolidated some things.
However one trouble I run into is I tend to think in 3e terms so have to reread some things. I expect you will run into the "I know how that works" and turns out your off issue.
about making PCs though you never have to stat them out, just ballpark it and that takes off some of the GMs workload.
Vehicles for 3e was the most complex book ever fro GURPS and now were mostly just dealing with simpler versions and premade stated vehicles

Blind Mapmaker · 11-08-2011, 12:38 AM

GURPS' main selling point is adaptability. Once your players got the most important rules they don't have to change to another system to play another genre or even another grade of realism (though the change from pretty cinematic to nitty-gritty does mean learning some more rules).

Before you buy the core books download and read through GURPS Light. You can get it over at e23. This contains probably 90% of what your players have to know for their first sessions and there is even stuff in there they won't need. Once you are comfortable with this amount of rules have your players take a shot at making simple characters with this. Point out some skills everybody will need (like Survival in a Fallout game), tell them what equipment is available and you're almost good to go.

If you don't mind a bit more work have a good look at occupational templates in the Basic Set and try to whip up something that helps the players to build characters and distinguish them from each other. For a Fallout game these templates could be something like Hunter, Mechanic, Scholar, Soldier, Treasure Hunter. Templates are a collection of attribute levels, advantages, disadvantages and skills that go with a given occupation. They offer choices without overwhelming new players with the whole list of things they can buy. I'm sure folks here on the forum will help you come up with something if you ask.

Now as for preparation GURPS certainly is more elaborate than most systems. You shouldn't expect much in the way of pre-packaged adventures and monsters, although things have been getting better with Dungeon Fantasy and other monster-heavy books. One way of reducing time is not to care for things that don't matter. Need a combat encounter? You need weapons, armour, weapon skills and attributes. No need to completely stat your adversaries unless they are intended to play another role. Need a social encounter? You only need the skills that will be relevant, maybe some disadvantages and a general motivation. Combat stats might be needed for every encounter in some groups, though.

If you want more help for the GM try your luck with one of the established genre lines (Dungeon Fantasy, Action, Monster Hunters). There will be more material for these and adventures for them crop up in Pyramid from time to time.

vicky_molokh · 11-08-2011, 03:46 AM

It sounds as if you followed the common path of trying to build everything to full accuracy. Don't. IMO the Spaceships-derived vehicle design is easier and simpler than VE2e, but not as detailed - probably a good thing. As for NPCs, don't give them charsheets unless they're an Ally. A few notes for yourself on the most relevant traits would be enough for most cases - only NPCs permanently joining the party are worth a full writeup.

That being said, 4e is somewhat more streamlined, but it will bog down if you try to use everything at once. Don't. Pick only those expansions that are relevant to the campaign. You don't need Social Engineering in a dungeon crawl, and most likely don't need Martial Arts in political campaign.

~~Peter Knutsen~~ · 11-08-2011, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apoc527

It's been...a long, long time. I'm seriously pondering getting back into GURPS after swearing it off in frustration about 9 years ago. How different is 4th Edition? How does it run? Can you get that signature GURPS realism without bogging down play?

If you liked GURPS 3rd Edition, 4E is fine. It's not very different, but fixes a lot of minor bugs. A lot of "realism" has been made optional, so that basic play is quite fast.

Don't worry. If you want to got back into GURPS, just buy the two core books, Characters and Campaigns, and maybe Powers and Supers as well, and whatever supplements you think you'll need, although I have to warn you stridently about GURPS Magic almost not having been updated.

Þorkell · 11-08-2011, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Don't worry. If you want to got back into GURPS, just buy the two core books, Characters and Campaigns, and maybe Powers and Supers as well, and whatever supplements you think you'll need, although I have to warn you stridently about GURPS Magic almost not having been updated.

Powers and Supers aren't gonna help him much if he wants to run a Fallout style game.

Well, maybe some small bits of Powers....

Anders · 11-08-2011, 12:35 PM

However, if you play a low-tech game then there's this great article about bows I'd like to show you... :)

ULFGARD · 11-08-2011, 12:35 PM

I'm not especially familiar with Fallout. But if you're looking for some streamlined rules, try Gun Fu or the Action series -- they're great sources of worked examples for what rules to use.

For NPCs, monsters, etc., use more streamlined stat blocs/skills. In essence, all you need to know is what they can do to fight/interact with the PCs. For instance, a scavenger NPC who might have stuff to sell would be prepared for his basic attributes plus Merchant, Scrounging, and perhaps some combat skills (in case things shade that way). Point totals don't matter for NPCs, and fully created NPC characters are generally only necessary for Allies, Dependents, and sometimes Enemies. Once you've made a few monsters and NPCs, you'll probably find that you can wing it fairly easily.

The suggestion of the GURPS game for the neophytes using GURPS Lite is dead on -- that's usually the best way. Another thing you might do is to try to come up with an introductory scenario where the stakes are fairly low (a tournament, VR simulation, etc.) where the players get to test out the rules and familiarize themselves with them -- sort of a dress rehearsal. In my fantasy games, I tend to start out with a tournament for new players, since it helps us all to get familiar with combat in a situation where the PCs lives aren't on the line (though their reputations may be).

As for the 4th ed -- it took awhile, but I've found that I like it a LOT better than 3d ed. The cinematic/realistic switches are more explicitly defined, and the powers approach (contained in the Basic Set and vastly expanded in Powers) allows for almost infinite flexibility in terms of generating abilities not already defined. That's handy.

Prep work itself depends on how you run your games. In my straight fantasy game, I have done the groundwork in working out the game world, so if I were to find some players with characters in hand, I could probably start an adventure within 5 minutes (plus character sheet review). The same wouldn't be true of your setting, since I haven't built it in advance. I'd create the local area with some vague idea of what else is going on and start from there.

Crakkerjakk · 11-08-2011, 02:00 PM

Welcome back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by apoc527

It's been...a long, long time. I'm seriously pondering getting back into GURPS after swearing it off in frustration about 9 years ago. How different is 4th Edition? How does it run? Can you get that signature GURPS realism without bogging down play? In the interim, we've been playing Alternity, Mongoose Traveller, various editions of D&D (3.0, 3.5, a tiny bit of 4, which was a tiny bit too much), and some Mongoose RuneQuest 2. All are great games, all have their foibles and weaknesses.

In play, much streamlined. All the peicemeal fixes that were scattered through the various compendiums and throughout all the other books are mostly just in Characters and Campaigns. You can dial the realism up or down, along with the detail, on a sliding scale.

Quote:

Originally Posted by apoc527

Back in the day, we played GURPS exclusively. What eventually killed it for me was the difficulty in GMing. In short, it took too much time to prepare almost anything. Designing a vehicle in GURPS 3rd Edition...forget it. 4th Edition seems different and I've picked up several books as references for other games (that's what happens when you have the best researched RPG supplements!).

A large part of the streamlining in 4e is knowing what to use more complex rules for and what to wing. Just because there's rules for how quickly you can climb a ladder doesn't mean you should be looking them up in most cases.

Quote:

Originally Posted by apoc527

I want to try running a GURPS "Fallout" type game (not actually Fallout, though I did find the excellent Fallout conversion online). I have all three Ultra, High, and Low Tech books (see aforementioned reference comment). I am thinking of just biting the bullet and getting the two Core books.

Yeah, Fallout-esque is pretty easy with just the core books. With all the other equipment books you'll have gear options coming out of your ears.

Quote:

Originally Posted by apoc527

How much effort will it take to stat up some NPCs? How long to explain to GURPS neophytes how to make a PC?

I wouldn't stat up NPCs beyond a basic attribute block, a few skills, and notes on gear and personality. Making PCs does take longer, but there's supplements that streamline that via templates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by apoc527

In short, what will I gain with GURPS 4th Edition over the other games I listed above (we're mostly on Mongoose Traveller and RuneQuest right now). I will say this for GURPS--about half my players don't like the Traveller random chargen. Those guys will love GURPS's control over character design. The others may get overwhelmed. Do you have any suggestions for selling GURPS to those who enjoy the ease of Traveller chargen?

Greater customizability. The same rules when you switch from space opera traders to gritty low fantasy.

To smooth the way for character creation, find templates for the genre you're playing. I actually recommend pregens for the first game session, so everyone gets a feel for what the stats mean before they have to pick them for their permenant characters.

apoc527 · 11-08-2011, 02:31 PM

Thanks everyone! I can say that the GURPS community is just as helpful and welcoming as it ever was!

Where would I find these templates? One of the more intimidating pieces of GURPS is the sheer volume of material on e23 right now for 4th edition. Where can I find some post-apoc appropriate monsters or beings? Any pre-built aliens?

I'm selling myself more and more, but think I will try it out a bit before really digging in. Smaller, cheaper resources are always helpful.

Thanks for the input!

11-07-2011, 11:53 PM	#1
apoc527 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Seattle, WA	Getting back into GURPS. Help/Suggestions? It's been...a long, long time. I'm seriously pondering getting back into GURPS after swearing it off in frustration about 9 years ago. How different is 4th Edition? How does it run? Can you get that signature GURPS realism without bogging down play? In the interim, we've been playing Alternity, Mongoose Traveller, various editions of D&D (3.0, 3.5, a tiny bit of 4, which was a tiny bit too much), and some Mongoose RuneQuest 2. All are great games, all have their foibles and weaknesses. Back in the day, we played GURPS exclusively. What eventually killed it for me was the difficulty in GMing. In short, it took too much time to prepare almost anything. Designing a vehicle in GURPS 3rd Edition...forget it. 4th Edition seems different and I've picked up several books as references for other games (that's what happens when you have the best researched RPG supplements!). I want to try running a GURPS "Fallout" type game (not actually Fallout, though I did find the excellent Fallout conversion online). I have all three Ultra, High, and Low Tech books (see aforementioned reference comment). I am thinking of just biting the bullet and getting the two Core books. How much effort will it take to stat up some NPCs? How long to explain to GURPS neophytes how to make a PC? In short, what will I gain with GURPS 4th Edition over the other games I listed above (we're mostly on Mongoose Traveller and RuneQuest right now). I will say this for GURPS--about half my players don't like the Traveller random chargen. Those guys will love GURPS's control over character design. The others may get overwhelmed. Do you have any suggestions for selling GURPS to those who enjoy the ease of Traveller chargen? Sorry for the many random thoughts, but I am not quite sure where to begin. Thanks for ANY insight that anybody might offer!

11-08-2011, 12:31 AM	#2
Refplace Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Yukon, OK	Re: Getting back into GURPS. Help/Suggestions? Hand out GURPS Lite to everyone. Even if you already know most of the system it will help them and cut down on the questions you have to field. Also read the Update PDF. Free and might give you a good idea of some of the differences. Mostly I would say its pretty much the same but a bit tightened up. Its very recognizable to 2e and 3e but they condensed and consolidated some things. However one trouble I run into is I tend to think in 3e terms so have to reread some things. I expect you will run into the "I know how that works" and turns out your off issue. about making PCs though you never have to stat them out, just ballpark it and that takes off some of the GMs workload. Vehicles for 3e was the most complex book ever fro GURPS and now were mostly just dealing with simpler versions and premade stated vehicles

11-08-2011, 12:38 AM	#3
Blind Mapmaker Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Mannheim, Baden	Re: Getting back into GURPS. Help/Suggestions? GURPS' main selling point is adaptability. Once your players got the most important rules they don't have to change to another system to play another genre or even another grade of realism (though the change from pretty cinematic to nitty-gritty does mean learning some more rules). Before you buy the core books download and read through GURPS Light. You can get it over at e23. This contains probably 90% of what your players have to know for their first sessions and there is even stuff in there they won't need. Once you are comfortable with this amount of rules have your players take a shot at making simple characters with this. Point out some skills everybody will need (like Survival in a Fallout game), tell them what equipment is available and you're almost good to go. If you don't mind a bit more work have a good look at occupational templates in the Basic Set and try to whip up something that helps the players to build characters and distinguish them from each other. For a Fallout game these templates could be something like Hunter, Mechanic, Scholar, Soldier, Treasure Hunter. Templates are a collection of attribute levels, advantages, disadvantages and skills that go with a given occupation. They offer choices without overwhelming new players with the whole list of things they can buy. I'm sure folks here on the forum will help you come up with something if you ask. Now as for preparation GURPS certainly is more elaborate than most systems. You shouldn't expect much in the way of pre-packaged adventures and monsters, although things have been getting better with Dungeon Fantasy and other monster-heavy books. One way of reducing time is not to care for things that don't matter. Need a combat encounter? You need weapons, armour, weapon skills and attributes. No need to completely stat your adversaries unless they are intended to play another role. Need a social encounter? You only need the skills that will be relevant, maybe some disadvantages and a general motivation. Combat stats might be needed for every encounter in some groups, though. If you want more help for the GM try your luck with one of the established genre lines (Dungeon Fantasy, Action, Monster Hunters). There will be more material for these and adventures for them crop up in Pyramid from time to time.

11-08-2011, 03:46 AM	#4
vicky_molokh GURPS FAQ Keeper Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Kyïv, Ukraine	Re: Getting back into GURPS. Help/Suggestions? It sounds as if you followed the common path of trying to build everything to full accuracy. Don't. IMO the Spaceships-derived vehicle design is easier and simpler than VE2e, but not as detailed - probably a good thing. As for NPCs, don't give them charsheets unless they're an Ally. A few notes for yourself on the most relevant traits would be enough for most cases - only NPCs permanently joining the party are worth a full writeup. That being said, 4e is somewhat more streamlined, but it will bog down if you try to use everything at once. Don't. Pick only those expansions that are relevant to the campaign. You don't need Social Engineering in a dungeon crawl, and most likely don't need Martial Arts in political campaign. __________________ Vicky 'Molokh', GURPS FAQ and uFAQ Keeper

11-08-2011, 12:35 PM	#7
Anders Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Gothenburg, Sweden	Re: Getting back into GURPS. Help/Suggestions? However, if you play a low-tech game then there's this great article about bows I'd like to show you... :) __________________ “When you arise in the morning think of what a privilege it is to be alive, to think, to enjoy, to love ...” Marcus Aurelius

11-08-2011, 12:35 PM	#8
ULFGARD Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Seattle	Re: Getting back into GURPS. Help/Suggestions? I'm not especially familiar with Fallout. But if you're looking for some streamlined rules, try Gun Fu or the Action series -- they're great sources of worked examples for what rules to use. For NPCs, monsters, etc., use more streamlined stat blocs/skills. In essence, all you need to know is what they can do to fight/interact with the PCs. For instance, a scavenger NPC who might have stuff to sell would be prepared for his basic attributes plus Merchant, Scrounging, and perhaps some combat skills (in case things shade that way). Point totals don't matter for NPCs, and fully created NPC characters are generally only necessary for Allies, Dependents, and sometimes Enemies. Once you've made a few monsters and NPCs, you'll probably find that you can wing it fairly easily. The suggestion of the GURPS game for the neophytes using GURPS Lite is dead on -- that's usually the best way. Another thing you might do is to try to come up with an introductory scenario where the stakes are fairly low (a tournament, VR simulation, etc.) where the players get to test out the rules and familiarize themselves with them -- sort of a dress rehearsal. In my fantasy games, I tend to start out with a tournament for new players, since it helps us all to get familiar with combat in a situation where the PCs lives aren't on the line (though their reputations may be). As for the 4th ed -- it took awhile, but I've found that I like it a LOT better than 3d ed. The cinematic/realistic switches are more explicitly defined, and the powers approach (contained in the Basic Set and vastly expanded in Powers) allows for almost infinite flexibility in terms of generating abilities not already defined. That's handy. Prep work itself depends on how you run your games. In my straight fantasy game, I have done the groundwork in working out the game world, so if I were to find some players with characters in hand, I could probably start an adventure within 5 minutes (plus character sheet review). The same wouldn't be true of your setting, since I haven't built it in advance. I'd create the local area with some vague idea of what else is going on and start from there. __________________ Seven Kingdoms, MH (as yet unnamed), and my "pick-up" DF game war stories, characters, and other ruminations can be found here.

11-08-2011, 02:31 PM	#10
apoc527 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Seattle, WA	Re: Getting back into GURPS. Help/Suggestions? Thanks everyone! I can say that the GURPS community is just as helpful and welcoming as it ever was! Where would I find these templates? One of the more intimidating pieces of GURPS is the sheer volume of material on e23 right now for 4th edition. Where can I find some post-apoc appropriate monsters or beings? Any pre-built aliens? I'm selling myself more and more, but think I will try it out a bit before really digging in. Smaller, cheaper resources are always helpful. Thanks for the input!