enchantment - how much should Loyal Sword actually interfere with Dancing Weapon?

[Plane]

Pg 63 of Magic talks about this in the last paragraph of Loyal Sword: "it makes the Dancing Weapon spell almost worthless."

There is a mentioned benefit to puffing a Loyal Sword w/ Dancing Weapon, which is that during the return trip (at Move 12) it gets to attack per DW rules, "but at no other time".

I think what this assumes is you grab the weapon in your hand, and thus must attack with the weapon yourself - dancing weapon doesn't work when you have a hold on the weapon.

But that raises an interesting question though - does Loyal Sword actually obligate you to close your hand around your weapon?

What happens, for example, if your hands are full, your hands are chopped off, or you simply don't want to grab ahold of that sword?

If that's the case, couldn't the sword just return to you (per Loyal Sword obligation) and then hover indefinitely trying to keep the handle next to your hand so that it's available to grasp when you're ready?

One aspect of Dancing Weapon which I think Loyal Sword would interfere with is the "can also be left with orders to attack anyone who approaches" option, since that would involve leaving the weapon behind and putting distance between yourself and the weapon, which is contrary to the theme of Loyal Sword.

Dancing Sword notably will continue to fight if it's master is unconscious (when you tend to drop your weapon) so shouldn't that be possible?

The only thing I can figure that would limit it is that it can't move freely in a hex and must keep it's handle touching your hand (in the case of an already-full hand, I guess touching the outside rather than the palm) which should mean it needs some way of moving your hand (or entire body) around to be able to fight freely on your behalf.

We could probably determine how to do that by the ST derived from the Power of Dancing Sword, like you could treat the wielder's body as encumbrance if a Loyal Sword had to operate as a Dancing Weapon while unconscious by lugging you around with it?

That would probably also require some kind of tether (like having a rope tying your handle to your wrist?) since most weapons wouldn't have a means of adhering to your hand, unless you had some kind of unconscious death-grip on it.

Since a Dancing Weapon fights with skill 15, even if a mage was conscious, it might be preferable to let the weapon fight on your behalf even if you had a handle on it, were that possible. This ultimately makes the weapon less effective (since you interfere with it) but is one way to make it harder for people to steal it away, since M64 talks about trapping it in bags or nets.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Plane

Pg 63 of Magic talks about this in the last paragraph of Loyal Sword: "it makes the Dancing Weapon spell almost worthless."

There is a mentioned benefit to puffing a Loyal Sword w/ Dancing Weapon, which is that during the return trip (at Move 12) it gets to attack per DW rules, "but at no other time".

I think what this assumes is you grab the weapon in your hand, and thus must attack with the weapon yourself - dancing weapon doesn't work when you have a hold on the weapon.

But that raises an interesting question though - does Loyal Sword actually obligate you to close your hand around your weapon?

Evidently not as it will return to your body when you are dead and presumably unable to grasp the weapon.

What happens, for example, if your hands are full, your hands are chopped off, or you simply don't want to grab ahold of that sword?

If one hand remains, it will return to that hand. If no hands remain or you refuse to grasp it or have both hands full and don't empty at least one to grasp it, then it should probably be treated as midway between voluntarily selling/giving it away and being dead. The weapon remains by you but becomes loyal to whoever next grasps it.

If that's the case, couldn't the sword just return to you (per Loyal Sword obligation) and then hover indefinitely trying to keep the handle next to your hand so that it's available to grasp when you're ready?

Possibly, but with the caveat that the loyal sword changes masters if someone else grasps it first.

One aspect of Dancing Weapon which I think Loyal Sword would interfere with is the "can also be left with orders to attack anyone who approaches" option, since that would involve leaving the weapon behind and putting distance between yourself and the weapon, which is contrary to the theme of Loyal Sword.

Dancing Sword notably will continue to fight if it's master is unconscious (when you tend to drop your weapon) so shouldn't that be possible?

No, it is expressly stated that the only thing that a Dancing Sword that is also a Loyal Sword may do is attack on the way back in as straight a line as possible. Given that the description in Dancing Sword tells you that a Dancing Sword continues fighting if its master is unconscious, it is a clear case that if that condition was possible for a Dancing Sword as a Loyal Sword, it would also have been called out as an exemption for Loyal Sword. However, it was not.

The only thing I can figure that would limit it is that it can't move freely in a hex and must keep it's handle touching your hand (in the case of an already-full hand, I guess touching the outside rather than the palm) which should mean it needs some way of moving your hand (or entire body) around to be able to fight freely on your behalf.

The only thing that limits it, as it were, is that being a Loyal Sword clearly takes priority over being a Dancing Sword in the event there is any conflict in action between the two. You can throw the sword as an action, but only as far as it can travel in one second. Even if you had the strength to throw it a distance that would take two seconds to cover, by the Loyal Sword enchantment, it will turn around and return at the end of the first second and it will not fight for you at all if you aren't actually grasping it, with the exception of fighting on its way back to you. Also take note that it returns in as straight a line as possible. Arguably, it fights only those who are in the way of a straight line return or those attempting to attack it on that return. If there's no one in the way, or making an attempt to strike the weapon it won't attack anyone in a hex to either side of that straight line return.

We could probably determine how to do that by the ST derived from the Power of Dancing Sword, like you could treat the wielder's body as encumbrance if a Loyal Sword had to operate as a Dancing Weapon while unconscious by lugging you around with it?

That would probably also require some kind of tether (like having a rope tying your handle to your wrist?) since most weapons wouldn't have a means of adhering to your hand, unless you had some kind of unconscious death-grip on it.

Since a Dancing Weapon fights with skill 15, even if a mage was conscious, it might be preferable to let the weapon fight on your behalf even if you had a handle on it, were that possible. This ultimately makes the weapon less effective (since you interfere with it) but is one way to make it harder for people to steal it away, since M64 talks about trapping it in bags or nets.

If you want a sword that does something like that, you need an enchantment that does something like that and the Loyal Sword/Dancing Sword enchantment combination isn't it.

[Varyon]

I'll start with my regular disclaimer - I neither have, nor use, GURPS Magic. That out of the way...

Can a Loyal Weapon be stowed (sheathed in a scabbard, hung by its thong on a belt hook, carried on the back with assistance of a lanyard, etc), or does doing so require you to relinquish ownership, such that the next person to grab it becomes the new owner?

If it can be stowed, I'd say in a situation where it's impossible for you to grasp it - hands bound closed too tight for the weapon to be grasped, hands cut off/incinerated, etc - it simply returns to its scabbard or similar. If it cannot be stowed without relinquishing ownership, or if its scabbard or similar is no longer on your person, it simply falls to the ground in your hex and is treated as lacking an owner. You could also simply refuse to grasp it (say, because your hands are full), which would have a similar effect - it returns to the scabbard or falls to the ground, ownerless. I'd have the weapon return to the hand of an unconscious character, and have said hand grip it reflexively. An interesting houserule would be if a Loyal weapon instead "sticks" to the hand, or where the hand should be in the case of someone who is missing a hand (or indeed a whole arm), allowing it to be wielded without actually gripping it; I'd treat it as being at -2 to attack (and -1 to defend) like this, but otherwise it would be fully usable.

Note none of this has anything to do with Dancing Weapon; it sounds like that's rather explicit in that the only functionality it adds to Loyal Weapon is being able to make attacks while en route back to the wielder. You could certainly houserule those restrictions away, however - a less-restrictive version might allow the weapon to take a more circuitous path back to the character (so long as every hex of movement brings it closer, it needn't be a straight line), and have it able to fight independently so long as its handle occupies the same hex as the owner.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Varyon

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Can a Loyal Weapon be stowed (sheathed in a scabbard, hung by its thong on a belt hook, carried on the back with assistance of a lanyard, etc), or does doing so require you to relinquish ownership, such that the next person to grab it becomes the new owner?
r.

A quick read of the spell text for Loyal sword mentions two cases for changing ownership. One is voluntarily giving it to another person (and _truly_ voluntary is emphasized) or death of the owner. Upon the owner's death the Sword returns to his body one last time but _only_ then does it belong to the next person to pick it up.

There was really, really, really none of this "I touched it last so it's mine!" "No _I_ touched it last!" that Plane seems to have imagined.

The text for Dancing Weapon is also very restrictive. a Dancing Weapon can not change owners while animated. Merely touching the hilt is _not_ enough (this is emphasized in the text). The owner has to be dead or the weapon "dealt with" by one of the ways specified in the earlier paragraphs.

So, no weird games of tag.

[Plane]

I think one thing I was picturing w/ this was the way Sora looks when using his last two Drive Forms (Master Form and Final Form) in Kingdom Hearts 2 - his weapons seem to fight on their own (he doesn't actually touch them) but the handles remain hovering near his hands and are guided by the movements of his arms. Basically they're just able to rotate in weird ways beyond the normal limitations of a human wrist.

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Possibly, but with the caveat that the loyal sword changes masters if someone else grasps it first.

I think there's a distinction between "I willingly drop my weapon to the ground" vs "I willingly bestow my weapon unto new ownership", which is also why I don't think it works if you agree to give/sell the weapon under duress.

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

No, it is expressly stated that the only thing that a Dancing Sword that is also a Loyal Sword may do is attack on the way back in as straight a line as possible.

I guess what I'm thinking is if you don't end up actually grabbing the weapon (the enchantment might bring the handle to your palm but it can't force your fingers to close around it) that the return trip could be extended indefinitely.

The same would probably also happen if something interfered with a direct path, like say there was a closed window in the way - is the weapon going to smash through that window? Divert a yard to the right and travel through the other window which is open?

We're told it "avoids enemies and obstacles" but I'm not sure the degree to which it can navigate obstacles - it's hard to picture a loyal sword being able to navigate a complex maze to find you, makes me think it should be assigned some kind of IQ for such purposes.

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Given that the description in Dancing Sword tells you that a Dancing Sword continues fighting if its master is unconscious, it is a clear case that if that condition was possible for a Dancing Sword as a Loyal Sword, it would also have been called out as an exemption for Loyal Sword. However, it was not.

That's an unusual condition for Dancing Sword put onto the followup page so it might've been overlooked.

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Even if you had the strength to throw it a distance that would take two seconds to cover, by the Loyal Sword enchantment, it will turn around and return at the end of the first second

The "returns on the next turn" condition is only "when dropped".

The "when thrown" condition is "flies until it hits something or falls to the ground"

So weirdly enough, if I'm on top of a huge bridge with a 5-second drop to the river, if I accidentally drop the sword it won't hit the water, but if I intentionally throw the sword then it will hit the water.

The "until it hits something" condition sounds like it could backfire if you're trying to throw a sword (or spear) THROUGH a target to hit a 2nd target behind it though - not sure if the enchantment would stop it prematurely or not.

Originally Posted by Varyon

Can a Loyal Weapon be stowed (sheathed in a scabbard, hung by its thong on a belt hook, carried on the back with assistance of a lanyard, etc), or does doing so require you to relinquish ownership, such that the next person to grab it becomes the new owner?

That's a good question, hadn't thought about it but it'd be pretty notably inconvenient if it was impossible to scabbard your loyal sword and it ALWAYS returned to your hand when not in it.

How for example would such a warrior eat a meal, use the toilet, consummate their marriage, etc.

I think one could reasonably argue that the parameters "if it is dropped or thrown" do not necessarily include the condition "if it is intentionally placed into or onto a surface delicately".

Like "dropped" is probably meant to imply "dropped accidentally" where gravity swiftly carries it away from you, alike throwing but unalike to scabbarding.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Plane

I think one thing I was picturing w/ this was the way Sora looks when using his last two Drive Forms (Master Form and Final Form) in Kingdom Hearts 2 - his weapons seem to fight on their own (he doesn't actually touch them) but the handles remain hovering near his hands and are guided by the movements of his arms. Basically they're just able to rotate in weird ways beyond the normal limitations of a human wrist.

I mentioned being able to wield it at -2 "hands-free" as a potential houserule for Loyal Weapon; it being able to move in ways a normal wrist couldn't doesn't give any real benefit and thus need not be accounted for - although if it functions as though it were wielded with a limb with Extra-Flexible, that's potentially a sizable benefit that may need accounted for (say, a penalty to cast and higher energy cost, for example). That would cover you here. Honestly, from the descriptions of them in this thread, I don't see any balance reasons for the two enchantments not to work together just fine (you can have your Loyal Dancing Weapon guard a doorway, fighting anyone who tries to pass, then call it back to your hand when needed), so a houserule to that effect shouldn't break anything.

Originally Posted by Plane

I guess what I'm thinking is if you don't end up actually grabbing the weapon (the enchantment might bring the handle to your palm but it can't force your fingers to close around it) that the return trip could be extended indefinitely.

If using the "hands-free" houserule, sure. If not, I'd say it just goes back into its scabbard or similar.

Originally Posted by Plane

The same would probably also happen if something interfered with a direct path, like say there was a closed window in the way - is the weapon going to smash through that window? Divert a yard to the right and travel through the other window which is open?

We're told it "avoids enemies and obstacles" but I'm not sure the degree to which it can navigate obstacles - it's hard to picture a loyal sword being able to navigate a complex maze to find you, makes me think it should be assigned some kind of IQ for such purposes.

It doesn't need an IQ; simply treating it as taking the most direct-but-open path (like a character in Skyrim using Clairvoyance, which just shows you a highlighted path to your objective) should be sufficient. If it's on the other side of a supernatural labyrinth, you'd basically have to decide which magic is stronger - if the Loyal Weapon enchantment is stronger, it finds the quickest path (which clever characters may be able to use to help navigate the labyrinth); if the labyrinth is stronger, the Loyal Weapon probably just falls to the ground and won't rejoin the character until he or she has the weapon in his/her line of sight.

Originally Posted by Plane

That's a good question, hadn't thought about it but it'd be pretty notably inconvenient if it was impossible to scabbard your loyal sword and it ALWAYS returned to your hand when not in it.

If there's no verbiage committed to this complication, I'd say it's intended not to have an issue with being stowed - in which case, as noted above, I'd have a Loyal Weapon that you cannot (or refuse to) grab when it returns to you simply go back into its scabbard or whatever.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Varyon

It doesn't need an IQ; simply treating it as taking the most direct-but-open path (like a character in Skyrim using Clairvoyance, which just shows you a highlighted path to your objective) should be sufficient. If it's on the other side of a supernatural labyrinth, you'd basically have to decide which magic is stronger - if the Loyal Weapon enchantment is stronger, it finds the quickest path (which clever characters may be able to use to help navigate the labyrinth); if the labyrinth is stronger, the Loyal Weapon probably just falls to the groun

It'd be strange if it effectively gave you an unlimited maze-navigating skill for non-magical mazes which is why I figured an effective IQ so you could do that roll at default.