Typical ST for a war bow?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Tyneras

I think Trained ST will fill my desires much better than my house-rule. Just a bit of tweaking so the scaling works with Half-Stat defaulting and I think I may replace all the old high skill bonuses (like for karate).

Plus I can keep Strongbow around for really amazing/cinematic archers, like elven archers and heroes.

How do people feel about using Strongbow as an alternative benefit for an archer talent?

TG replaced "Power Grappling," which floats grappling skills to a ST basis rather than DX-basis, with Trained ST. No reason why if you use a Trained progression with bow skill you shouldn't eliminate it.

One thing that you could do is to have bog-standard archery be on the slow or average progression, but if you have WM (Bows) you move to Fast.

Or just leave it as-is, and let that perk give you access to the ST progression. I'm not sure it'll matter, though, because otherwise you're saying "sure, you have DX+2 in a ranged weapon skill, but somehow you got it without learning how to bend the bow correctly."

[Tyneras]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

TG replaced "Power Grappling," which floats grappling skills to a ST basis rather than DX-basis, with Trained ST. No reason why if you use a Trained progression with bow skill you shouldn't eliminate it.

One thing that you could do is to have bog-standard archery be on the slow or average progression, but if you have WM (Bows) you move to Fast.

Or just leave it as-is, and let that perk give you access to the ST progression. I'm not sure it'll matter, though, because otherwise you're saying "sure, you have DX+2 in a ranged weapon skill, but somehow you got it without learning how to bend the bow correctly."

I was actually imagining that with Bow now using Trained ST, Strongbow would effectively give +1 Trained ST (Bows) without it being linked to the skill level. Which is effectively what it does now, but with different phrasing.

Broad application of Trained ST also opens up the possibility of perks such as Strongflail and Strongfist.

Based on TallIan's experience, Bows sounds like it might be Fast progression, but that could also be eliminating familiarity penalties as well.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Tyneras

I was actually imagining that with Bow now using Trained ST, Strongbow would effectively give +1 Trained ST (Bows) without it being linked to the skill level. Which is effectively what it does now, but with different phrasing.

Huh? Isn't it currently basically "You get Fast Trained ST for Bows up +2"? It is definitely linked to skill level:

Originally Posted by Martial Arts p. 51

If you know Bow at DX+1, you can shoot a bow of your ST+1 instead of your ST. Bow at DX+2 or better lets you use a bow of your
ST+2.

[Tyneras]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Huh? Isn't it currently basically "You get Fast Trained ST for Bows up +2"? It is definitely linked to skill level:

Completely missed that. It's times like this I feel the need for a GURPS 4th Edition Compendium.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Tyneras

Completely missed that. It's times like this I feel the need for a GURPS 4th Edition Compendium.

The same text is in both Power Ups 2: Perks and Dungeon Fantasy 11: Power Ups.

[Tyneras]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

The same text is in both Power Ups 2: Perks and Dungeon Fantasy 11: Power Ups.

Weird. I could have sworn there was a Perk that just increased you effective ST for using bows by 1 with no other effects or requirements. That's how I've been using Strongbow for a while now.

Edit: In retrospect, this makes several of my posts confusing since I'm misusing the term Strongbow for something else.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Or just leave it as-is, and let that perk give you access to the ST progression. I'm not sure it'll matter, though, because otherwise you're saying "sure, you have DX+2 in a ranged weapon skill, but somehow you got it without learning how to bend the bow correctly."

Not everyone who uses Bow is interested in drawing a heavy warbow. Would someone who is handy with lighter bows necessarily be so good at bending the heavier ones?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Not everyone who uses Bow is interested in drawing a heavy warbow. Would someone who is handy with lighter bows necessarily be so good at bending the heavier ones?

That's a good point, actually. And it makes it for a nice perk and justification for it.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

No one disagrees with a range of ST, it's just the base ST's needed to draw Historically accurate bows are very high in terms of what else they can do.

I would think that extrapolating backwards would be easier -- perhaps the 100 lb. bow is ST 10, and then every 10-20 lbs. pull more is ST+1. I know Doug Cole did a fine job with his bow article, but he also hosed arrow damage somewhat, too, to make it more "realistic" -- and if I recall, dropped Acc and some other bits. I think you'd need to take his whole package of nerfing bows just get someplace reasonable. But all of this is trying to rebuild GURPS into something else, if that is your vision of how it works, and that's all fine, too. But it may be more trouble than it's worth; it certainly is to me. It might be easier to make the key assumption that the average military age guy is able to draw the average militarily useful bow (whatever its pull), and then give the specially bred super archers trained ST or Strongbow perk (or a leveled version of Strongbow) and go on.

[Flyndaran]

One arm pulling and holding of 100 lbs doesn't sound heroic average ST 10 to me.