could you put Golem or Zombie IQ into a Weapon Spirit ?

[Plane]

When looking at M64's pricing scheme for Weapon Spirit, it sounds like IQ is definitely the best deal when compared to putting in other advantages. IQ normally costs 20cp per point, so at 100 per IQ you're looking at only 5 energy per CP, which is 1/10 the cost of 50 x CP cost.

IQ normally includes perception (5cp per point) which doesn't seem to apply here though (it's a fixed Per 10) so it's probably more like spending 100 energy to get 15cp, but that's still pretty good: 6⅔ energy per CP is still around 1/8th the cost.

It seems like the only downside here would be that IQ cost can't be offset by disadvantages the way advantage cost can.

The caveat here is that the being that died must have had that IQ, so if you're just sacrificing some disposable IQ 1 mouse you can't do much.

To get access to higher IQ comes with increasingly bigger moral quandries - are you sacrificing an innocent being? Or even if it was other causes - could you have done something to extend their life but maybe opted not to so that you could have a Weapon Spirit?

Plus when you approach the issue of sapient IQ (like putting the mind of a dying person into your weapon) even if they were already dying and you just timed it right - did you get their consent? Not everyone wants to live eternity inside a sword if becoming a ghost or going to an afterlife like Valhalla is an option.

This is after all a "transfer" of personality, not a "copy", so whatever you put into your weapon you are probably depriving of this being if they exist in some form after their death - whatever the rules for that might be. Sounds like if you tried to resurrect them, they'd be missing whatever IQ you put into the weapon?

That makes it odd there's no resistance roll for this weapon - is there possible some way a mage could enchant themself so on their death they have a chance of not getting trapped inside a Weapon Spirit?

- -

Anyway aside from that it made me wonder "what if I just created a being with IQ using magic and then killed them and made them the weapon spirit?"

Clay Golem (M59) have an IQ of 8, for example, and might be created for as little as 130 energy. They're more intelligent than a dog so if you could put a golem's mind into your sword that'd help more than putting a dog's IQ in.

Zombie (M151) can also do IQ 8 and is even cheaper to set up - a mere 8 energy. The downside is you do need a corpse to defile, but that might be some long-dead corpse so it doesn't have the same issues regarding immediate deaths.

Since we're talking about the IQ of the zombie spell (and not the IQ held by the being the zombie was made from) presumably the time-based penalty would be based on the date your zombie died (easy enough by ordering it to let a 2nd zombie tear it apart) so you could time that (2nd) death perfectly to when you're ready to cast Weapon Spirit.

Other spells which involve creating magical IQs include Initiative (M97) which can mimic up to the spellcaster's, or Create Servant (M98) which can have IQ 9, or Create Warrior (IQ 10)

These illusion spells don't create permanent beings like golem/zombie though so I'm not confident they'd qualify for Weapon Spirit. Would you possibly need to cast something like Ensorcel on them first to make them permanent spells for their death to mean something?

[edk926]

I don't think a Golem would work because it was never truly "alive". Ditto for Creations. There is a penalty based on how long the corpse is dead, so a long-dead corpse wouldn't work either. I guess you could find a newly dead body, raise it as a Zombie, and then try.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Plane

When looking at M64's pricing scheme for Weapon Spirit, it sounds like IQ is definitely the best deal when compared to putting in other advantages. IQ normally costs 20cp per point, so at 100 per IQ you're looking at only 5 energy per CP, which is 1/10 the cost of 50 x CP cost.

IQ normally includes perception (5cp per point) which doesn't seem to apply here though (it's a fixed Per 10) so it's probably more like spending 100 energy to get 15cp, but that's still pretty good: 6⅔ energy per CP is still around 1/8th the cost.

It seems like the only downside here would be that IQ cost can't be offset by disadvantages the way advantage cost can.

The caveat here is that the being that died must have had that IQ, so if you're just sacrificing some disposable IQ 1 mouse you can't do much.

To get access to higher IQ comes with increasingly bigger moral quandries - are you sacrificing an innocent being? Or even if it was other causes - could you have done something to extend their life but maybe opted not to so that you could have a Weapon Spirit?

Plus when you approach the issue of sapient IQ (like putting the mind of a dying person into your weapon) even if they were already dying and you just timed it right - did you get their consent? Not everyone wants to live eternity inside a sword if becoming a ghost or going to an afterlife like Valhalla is an option.

This is after all a "transfer" of personality, not a "copy", so whatever you put into your weapon you are probably depriving of this being if they exist in some form after their death - whatever the rules for that might be. Sounds like if you tried to resurrect them, they'd be missing whatever IQ you put into the weapon?

That makes it odd there's no resistance roll for this weapon - is there possible some way a mage could enchant themself so on their death they have a chance of not getting trapped inside a Weapon Spirit?

- -

Anyway aside from that it made me wonder "what if I just created a being with IQ using magic and then killed them and made them the weapon spirit?"

Clay Golem (M59) have an IQ of 8, for example, and might be created for as little as 130 energy. They're more intelligent than a dog so if you could put a golem's mind into your sword that'd help more than putting a dog's IQ in.

Zombie (M151) can also do IQ 8 and is even cheaper to set up - a mere 8 energy. The downside is you do need a corpse to defile, but that might be some long-dead corpse so it doesn't have the same issues regarding immediate deaths.

Since we're talking about the IQ of the zombie spell (and not the IQ held by the being the zombie was made from) presumably the time-based penalty would be based on the date your zombie died (easy enough by ordering it to let a 2nd zombie tear it apart) so you could time that (2nd) death perfectly to when you're ready to cast Weapon Spirit.

Other spells which involve creating magical IQs include Initiative (M97) which can mimic up to the spellcaster's, or Create Servant (M98) which can have IQ 9, or Create Warrior (IQ 10)

These illusion spells don't create permanent beings like golem/zombie though so I'm not confident they'd qualify for Weapon Spirit. Would you possibly need to cast something like Ensorcel on them first to make them permanent spells for their death to mean something?

Facepalm. As the prerequisite for Weapon Spirit indicates, you are summoning the spirit of a deceased body. The primary difference between that and Zombie or Golem is that the spirit you are summoning in those instances are, in effect, "any old spirit", not necessarily that which formerly inhabited the body.

This leads to two possibilities. First, Weapon Spirit only works with "known spirits", i.e., those for whom the caster has the associated body. In that case, generic spirits of the type used by the Zombie or Golem spell simply aren't usable as Weapon Spirits. Second, generic spirits can be used as Weapon Spirits but the warning within the text is enforced, i.e., you don't know what you're getting and are more likely than not to end up with a Weapon Spirit that works at cross-purposes to your intent. In other words, using a generic spirit on the whole creates a Weapon Spirit that refuses to communicate or cooperate in any way.

As for magical protection from becoming a Weapon Spirit, that already exists. The spell is called Final Rest (Magic, p. 89).

[Plane]

Originally Posted by edk926

I don't think a Golem would work because it was never truly "alive". Ditto for Creations. There is a penalty based on how long the corpse is dead, so a long-dead corpse wouldn't work either. I guess you could find a newly dead body, raise it as a Zombie, and then try.

You mean like to get a zombie's IQ 8 if that was higher than the IQ the person had while alive?

Or because that would trap a zombie spirit instead of a human spirit?

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

The primary difference between that and Zombie or Golem is that the spirit you are summoning in those instances are, in effect, "any old spirit", not necessarily that which formerly inhabited the body.

To you think the use of a pre-existing soul is implied by Summon Spirit being a prereq for zombie?

It's not a prereq for Golem though, only Enchant / Shape Earth / Animation

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

As for magical protection from becoming a Weapon Spirit, that already exists. The spell is called Final Rest (Magic, p. 89).

Pg 89 talks about immunity to Necromantic magic, Weapon Spirit I guess "summons" it though so that could count.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Plane

<snip>



Do you think the use of a pre-existing soul is implied by Summon Spirit being a prereq for zombie?

Pre-existing spirit not pre-existing soul, which in GURPS is potentially not quite the same thing as a soul, in a way similar to the difference between sentience and sapience. But yes, I do take the Summon Spirit prerequisite for Zombie as implying that the Zombie gets its semblance of life by being occupied by a spirit which is summoned for that purpose as part and parcel of the Zombie spell.

It's not a prereq for Golem though, only Enchant / Shape Earth / Animation

Summon Spirit is a "hidden" prerequisite for Golem in that Summon Spirit is a prerequisite for Animation, and a similar rationale applies to Animation as it does to Zombie. As a prerequisite for Animation, it is implied that a spirit is summoned to "possess" the item being animated and the animation is effected by the spirit's actions rather than the spell powering the item's animation by the "pure power of magic" or mana or what have you.

That implication then leads to a view that what the Golem spell does, as part and parcel of it, is summon a spirit to inhabit the golem's body, thereby animating it an giving it its semblance of life and ability to respond to orders.

Pg 89 talks about immunity to Necromantic magic, Weapon Spirit I guess "summons" it though so that could count.

Yes, but I was going by the fact that Final Rest prevents the spirit from being subject to Summon Spirit, which is also a Necromantic spell. That protection should in itself be sufficient to ward off any spell which had Summon Spirit as a prerequisite.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Summon Spirit is a "hidden" prerequisite for Golem in that Summon Spirit is a prerequisite for Animation,

I should've checked Animation, the name sounded generic so I hadn't considered it, good catch

Yes, but I was going by the fact that Final Rest prevents the spirit from being subject to Summon Spirit, which is also a Necromantic spell. That protection should in itself be sufficient to ward off any spell which had Summon Spirit as a prerequisite.

Sounds like they should have made it a prereq for Weapon Spirit