Redundent advantages?

[Rolando]

Something with IQ0 is mindless in the sense that it don't have a mind of its own or not a mind at all, or because it is a very simple mind. But you are not controlling the mind, you are controlling the creature.

A machine is IQ0 but controllable, in an ultra tech setting you may control machines with effective IQ0 through neural connection, same with magic or psi powers vs a creature with IQ0 and no protection against control.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Probably jellyfish but jellyfish are one of those creatures that do have a primitive neural network. They are well above sponges evolutionarily speaking.

Jellyfishes have a few neurons, yes, but they do not have a neural system. Those serve the purpose of answering to external biochemical/physical external stimuli in a very predetermined way, like a drone or a robot. Most of the time, this means being attracted/repulsed by light sources. It's no different from bacteria that also have a big series of biochemical reactions "guiding their behavior" - which on some cases also includes reaction towards the presence of light.

Also, modern Evolution no longer classifies organisms in terms of more or less "evolved", as in "better". That was a 19th century concept, that envisioned humans at the top of the ladder of "improvement".

Today, organisms are merely classified as more or less derivated, or with more changes in relation to the ancestors.

Sharks for example have changed very little over the last hundreds of millions of years, and the reason being that they are almost perfect. The White Shark has been the same for the last 5 million years, while our Homo generus didnt even exist. I would say that the white shark is far more "evolved" than we are, since the hominideans have been getting extinct non stop over the same amount of time.

In that sense, sponges are, in fact, the MOST "evolved" animal of all kinds, since they have been around long before than any other.

Anyway, back to the jellyfishes: I wouldnt exactly call half a dozen neurons capable of doing no more than a bacteria does as "IQ 1" material

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Rolando

Something with IQ0 is mindless in the sense that it don't have a mind of its own or not a mind at all, or because it is a very simple mind. But you are not controlling the mind, you are controlling the creature.

A machine is IQ0 but controllable, in an ultra tech setting you may control machines with effective IQ0 through neural connection, same with magic or psi powers vs a creature with IQ0 and no protection against control.

Yes, but you dont use the Mind School of Magic to control a toaster, you use Techno Magic. There's a reason for those being different schools - just like you use Plant Magic to control an oak, and not Mind.

You cant "brainwash" a machine, but you can reprogramme it. Nevertheless, those still are highly different skills, and it makes no sense to use one for the other

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

Also, modern Evolution no longer classifies organisms in terms of more or less "evolved", as in "better". l

They didn't use 19trh century definitions back when I studied marine biology which was long ago but not actually in the 19th century.

Creatures were "more advanced" based on what features they had and when those features appeared.

You also underrate the neural network of jellyfish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jellyfish

They are capable of far more complex behaviors than bacteria.

[Rolando]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

Yes, but you dont use the Mind School of Magic to control a toaster, you use Techno Magic. There's a reason for those being different schools - just like you use Plant Magic to control an oak, and not Mind.

You cant "brainwash" a machine, but you can reprogramme it. Nevertheless, those still are highly different skills, and it makes no sense to use one for the other

the reason you use plant college to control plants have nothing to do with the mind/brain/IQ level.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by maximara

Interesting as D&D expressly states "An ooze possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry) — Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects)."

More over DF Monsters 2 Icky Goo states "Most goo has IQ 0. The IQ 1+ kinds are no easier to control, influence, or scare; they have Immunity to Mind Control, Indomitable, and Unfazeable. "

I'm aware. I simply argue that oozes should be controllable by the right exotic spell, just as computers are controllable by the right exotic spell. They are simply strange enough that the usual person/animal/plant spells wouldnt be able to do the trick.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The dividing line might be sponges which are animals with absolutely no nervous system. On the other side of the line might be several microscopic things that nonetheless do have simple neural nets.

A few years back, I tried to figure out how animals rank in GURPS IQ terms and found myself making similar distinctions.

I found it useful to separate IQ 0 (no volitional mental activity whatsoever) from IQ 0.25 (minimal neural nets, instinctive responses), from IQ 0.5 (simple brains, potentially complex instinctive behaviors and simple situational capacity for learning or problem solving).

IQ 0 implies Unfazeable, Indomitable, and Immunity (Mind Control) for living beings or else a completely unliving/inanimate entity with their own sets of problems. Creatures at this level are no smarter than simple computers with no self-awareness. (OTH, if you insist on playing a rock or simple tool as a PC, you would have to buy all the traits listed above. Because "you get what you pay for" in GURPS.)

IQ 0.25-0.5 implies basic emotions (e.g., anger, fear), susceptibility to external manipulation, and possibly limited self-awareness. They might lack the advantages listed above, but will typically have reasonable Per and Will scores. Some species might have a collective or "emergent" intelligence which goes as high as IQ 2-3.

Functionally, it's all IQ 0 but the GM needs to make some design choices based on actual cognitive ability.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I'm aware. I simply argue that oozes should be controllable by the right exotic spell, just as computers are controllable by the right exotic spell. They are simply strange enough that the usual person/animal/plant spells wouldnt be able to do the trick.

This is a common Feature for magical creatures. If you can't be affected by Mind Control college spells, but can be affected by spells of another college it's an even trade-off worth no points.

Animals = Animal.
Elementals = Appropriate elemental college.
Fungi = Fungi (if you don't fold Fungi in with Plant magic)
Machines = Technology.
Plants = Plant.
Lesser Undead = Necromantic.

I'd suggest that oozes, etc. can be controlled by one of Animal, Fungi, or Plant college spells, based on their origins. Alternately, whip up a college of "Slime Magic" which allows you to cast spells based on the nasty properties of fantasy slime monsters.

[Inky]

Originally Posted by Rolando

the reason you use plant college to control plants have nothing to do with the mind/brain/IQ level.

Animals do have GURPS IQ, but they still don't answer to standard Mind Control spells, instead you have to use Animal spells. So it might not be a case of "Mind Control spells only work on things with minds" so much as "Mind Control spells only work on fairly humanlike minds". Although it is called out that the Giant Ape in Dungeon Fantasy Monsters (IQ 6) is "intelligent enough" that Mind Control spells apply rather than Animal spells.

Originally Posted by Rolando

Something with IQ0 is mindless in the sense that it don't have a mind of its own or not a mind at all, or because it is a very simple mind. But you are not controlling the mind, you are controlling the creature.

A machine is IQ0 but controllable, in an ultra tech setting you may control machines with effective IQ0 through neural connection, same with magic or psi powers vs a creature with IQ0 and no protection against control.

And an IQ 0 machine is IQ 0 in the apparently earlier sense - if nobody is controlling it, it just sits there.

Anyhow, if an IQ 0 ooze that can move around spontaneously is rules-legal, then it seems like it should also have to make Fright Checks like any other creature, unless it has the Advantages to say otherwise.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Inky

Anyhow, if an IQ 0 ooze that can move around spontaneously is rules-legal, then it seems like it should also have to make Fright Checks like any other creature, unless it has the Advantages to say otherwise.

It could lack the senses to detect the thing it could theoretically be frightened of. This might not work against Terror but many situations that cause others to make Fright Checks wouldn't get to it.

As an example a human's blood-soaked massacre scene is all just a lot of food on the floor to the chemoreception of an ooze.

Even some relatively bright animals might not have to make soe eFright Checks because of their Bestial Disadvantage.

Terror _is_ different because that's a Power ut most fright checks happen becuase of GM judgment as to ahow a certain thing should affect a character.