Skills for Underground Construction

[Prince Charon]

From dugout shelters, to WWI trench lines and Viet Cong tunnel networks, to the mansion-like Great Smials of Tolkien's Took family, holes in the ground (or the sides of hills) to live or work in are things that may be important for PCs and NPCs in role-playing games. How are they made (game-mechanically), though?

There does not appear to be a 'Digging' skill in GUPS, which on the one hand makes sense as it's 'unskilled labour,' but on the other hand, it seems to me like some sort of HT-based 'digging' skill would make sense for much the same reasons that Hiking and Running are HT-based. Basic Entrenching is probably covered by Soldier, but you probably need something like Professional Skill: Miner to know where and how to shore up tunnels so that they don't collapse on you (and indeed, miners have created some pretty elaborate places deep below the grass). The trench lines of late-WWI were quite elaborate, with shelves and bed-nooks dug into the sides of trenches, and even large subsurface rooms for storage, meetings, kitchens, and officers' quarters. When the guns weren't too loud, soldiers might have imagined themselves as being part of some strange community who simply chose to live underground (it is very much to Tolkien's credit that he was able to make something so beautiful out of the trauma the war gave him).

Designing underground dwellings probably involves something like Architecture (Underground), though there may be a better name for the specialization, and for magical folk who live under the hill, perhaps some form of Symbol Drawing (Sacred Architecture). Artist (Sculpting) is likely involved in decoration, but might also be used to make stone furniture.

What other skills, techniques, or similar might be involved? How might this work, if for example the PCs were members of a halfling or dwarf community settling in a new location?

[RGTraynor]

Professional Skill (Mining) is certainly how I'd do it, and seems something of a no-brainer for what is after all a highly technical job.

For military trenchwork, though, Engineer (Siege) sounds about right.

[Fred Brackin]

There are Engineeer specializations that cover these things. P.190 gives you (Combat) which covers trenches and (Mining) for "underground structures".

[The Colonel]

You can probably do basic entrenchment with Soldier if you've been in any army that experienced WW1 as it's taught in basic by most of them (although you might need to be qualified infantry before it becomes a no-roll task). Engineer (Combat) sounds about right for more extensive works, although anyone who understands groundwork (mining or civils) should probably be able to figure it out easily enough.

If you really want to drill down (ahem) you'll probably have gangs of labourers (with or without Digging), possibly lead by those with Professional Skill: Mining and the project overseen by one or more Engineers. Fantasy dwarves probably have all three skills and so work a lot more efficiently - hobbit builders probably take a lot of tea breaks.

[malloyd]

All of the skills for building structures seem to be somewhat missing. What do you roll against to build something above ground? I guess if I had to pick something RAW for the underground structure, I'd use the same one I'd probably pick for that - either Masonry or Architecture.

I do think there is good case to be made that was the *intent* of Architecture (it being a craft and not the design skill the description makes it sound like justifying why it's easier than Engineer, and why it slots into the Mechanic/Repair skill default slot for Engineer (Civil)).

Both Masonry and Architecture are a good choices too because both are almost always already on the list of recommended skills for Dwarves, which is probably the place most gamers are likely to be looking for and not finding a building construction or mining skill.

I do think Mining/TL would be a reasonable enough addition if you are willing to go with something entirely new. It's actually kind of odd nobody caught it when looking over Engineer, given that Engineer (Mining)'s lack of a craft default sort of stands out. Though admittedly it's not the [only] one lacking one.

[thrash]

Originally Posted by malloyd

All of the skills for building structures seem to be somewhat missing. What do you roll against to build something above ground?

Architecture and Engineer(Civil) for good design. various craft skills (Carpentry, Electrician, Machinist, Masonry, Smith) for the specialized trades. Using Smith for welding structural steel seems a little odd, but doable. A modern building has several specialties of Machinist (plumbing, HVAC, elevators, etc.).

Note that Low Tech Companion 3 covers much of this discussion, including skills for building trades.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

You can probably do basic entrenchment with Soldier if you've been in any army that experienced WW1 as it's taught in basic by most of them (although you might need to be qualified infantry before it becomes a no-roll task). Engineer (Combat) sounds about right for more extensive works, although anyone who understands groundwork (mining or civils) should probably be able to figure it out easily enough.

OK, now I'm imagining some fellow who inherited some land with hills and no house on it after WWI, and deciding to get a few of his friends together and seriously build the home that they joked about in the trenches.

Originally Posted by The Colonel

If you really want to drill down (ahem) you'll probably have gangs of labourers (with or without Digging), possibly lead by those with Professional Skill: Mining and the project overseen by one or more Engineers. Fantasy dwarves probably have all three skills and so work a lot more efficiently - hobbit builders probably take a lot of tea breaks.

Also more meal breaks than the dwarves would.

Originally Posted by malloyd

All of the skills for building structures seem to be somewhat missing. What do you roll against to build something above ground? I guess if I had to pick something RAW for the underground structure, I'd use the same one I'd probably pick for that - either Masonry or Architecture.

I would guess that Masonry is the intended skill for building normal aboveground structures, along with Carpentry if the structure is largely or entirely wooden. I think you're right about Architecture being the Craft skill for Civil Engineering, though if one of the devs notices and weighs in, we'll know for sure. The image in my head right now is that the architect uses both skills to design a new structure, Engineer to make sure that it's structurally sound and Architecture to decide what it looks like within those constraints. An architect without an appropriate Engineer skill (or who fails the roll badly) can still design buildings, but if they try to get too fancy without having a skilled Engineer look over the plans before construction, they can end up with a lethal mess. This seems like a good representation of how that happened many times in real life.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

There does not appear to be a 'Digging' skill in GURPS

It probably doesn't appear to limit skill bloat, just like useful skills like PS (Construction, Firefighter, Lumberjack, Miner, or Plumbing) aren't present.

Based on experience, I've found that you do get more efficient at digging with practice. It's not just muscle development but also setting a proper pace and learning to use tools more efficiently.

Since PS (Miner) is an Average skill, Digging has to be a HT/Easy skill. It's possessed by burrowing animals and workmen who just dig canals and ditches using hand tools. It was a very common skill at TL5 and below (e.g., the Erie Canal and hundreds of less famous canals throughout the world were all dug by hand).

It should also cover basic similar tasks such as breaking rocks, levering stumps and boulders out of the ground, and "tiling" fields to drain them.

Defaults might be PS (Miner)-0; Farming-2, Soldier-2, Gardening-3, Masonry-3, Prospecting-5.

PS (Miner) is a stripped down practical version of Engineer (Mining) which applies as soon as you break rock to extract valuable minerals or dig deep or enclosed tunnels or underground galleries. It is to Engineering (Mining) as Mechanic is to Engineering (Automotive, Mechanical, etc.).

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

The trench lines of late-WWI were quite elaborate, with shelves and bed-nooks dug into the sides of trenches, and even large subsurface rooms for storage, meetings, kitchens, and officers' quarters.

Those elaborate trench lines didn't just spontaneously emerge. There were engineering officers who wrote manuals and supervised construction. In GURPS terms, it's Engineering/TL (Military). Soldiers who dug deep galleries were either professional miners in civilian life or were supervised by engineers or military sappers.

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

Designing underground dwellings probably involves something like Architecture (Underground)

Architecture would cover aesthetics, general design, and "human (or whatever) factors." RL architects consult with engineers to make sure that their pretty designs conform to the laws of physics and can actually be constructed using available materials.

Architecture (Underground) with Engineering (Mining) and Geology as complementary skills makes sense if you're building underground habitats. PS (Mining) would be the skill required to turn the plans into reality. Use Prospecting to find areas of rocks which lend themselves to underground construction. Carpentry or Smith skills might be needed to build and maintain bracing and other supports. Add Explosives (Demolitions) skill if you plan to blast rock or earth out of the way.

Engineering (Mining) + Geology is needed to determine if it's possible to dig in a given area, plan out the all-important drainage and ventilation systems, and determine what sort of supports the tunnels and galleries need, and determine what effects explosions or digging will have on the surrounding rock.

[dcarson]

A Physical Work(HT) skill with a required specialty to cover any kind of physically demanding job and learning how to minimize the effort, train the right muscles. Like the scrawny old farmer that can toss more bails of hay than the football star teen.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by dcarson

A Physical Work(HT) skill with a required specialty to cover any kind of physically demanding job and learning how to minimize the effort, train the right muscles. Like the scrawny old farmer that can toss more bails of hay than the football star teen.

This makes sense for a HT/A skill. It could also represent animals conditioned to perform physically demanding tasks like carrying loads.

Laborer (HT/Average)
Defaults: Crewman-3, Farming-3, Hiking-3, Lifting-3, Masonry-3, Soldier-3, Smith-3.

You’re trained to perform all manner of repetitive, physically strenuous, non-combat tasks such as chopping wood, digging, turning cranks, tossing hay bales, and pulling loads.

Roll vs. Laborer skill when you attempt to drag, push, pull, or shift (but not lift) a heavy object. On a success, increase your Basic Lift by 5% per point by which you made your roll.

You may also substitute your skill for Basic Lift to determine how fast you dig (p. B350), or for HT to determine how quickly you fatigue when doing tasks such as chopping wood or operating human-powered machines.

Animals can learn this skill to help them better adapt to carrying packs, pulling wagons, or powering machines.

Any skill which involves repetitive non-combat physical activity might default to Laborer, but only for tasks which could reasonably be part of that skill. For example, low-tech Seamanship defaults to Laborer when performing tasks like hoisting sails, manning pumps, or turning capstans.


It could also be combined with the following perk.

Trained Strength (Type) (Leveled)
You get a +1 bonus per level to Lifting ST to perform a single, repetitive non-combat task, such as breaking rocks, chopping wood, digging, or carrying a certain type of load.
This is the generic, non-combat version of perks such as Strongbow. Realistically, the GM might limit the type of tasks this perk benefits or limit characters to just 1-2 levels.