GURPS Power-Ups 9: Alternate Attributes

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

One way to approach this that I've toyed with quite a bit is to have this sort of resistance be treated like a parry. So 3+(Governing Attribute)/2.

Will-20 thus does Fright Checks vs 13; Will 10 is only 8.

If spell resistance was the same way, a Wizard with Power-24 would have a magic resistance of 15; that's high but not breaking, and "Rule of 16" territory is pushed to Skill-28 and higher for things.

I thought of something else because of this post I wanted to address separately.
Changing skills to be 3+(Governing Attribute)/2 instead of based on the attribute could give us something worthwhile.
Effective skill changed to 5 + (Controlling Attribute)/2 + applicable Talent and Technique.
That emphasizes and supports a greater use of Talents and Techniques while not requiring a complicated change or changing attribute costs.
Base 3 makes it more expensive to be competent than I think is warranted for simple skills so I went with Base 5.
Another tweak, (though more complicated) could be...
Easy Skills 5 + (Controlling Attribute)/2 + applicable Talent and Technique. Base 10
Average Skills 5 + (Controlling Attribute)/3 + applicable Talent and Technique. Base 8
Hard Skills 5 + (Controlling Attribute)/4 + applicable Talent and Technique. Base 7
Very Hard Skills 5 + (Controlling Attribute)/5 + applicable Talent and Technique. Base 6

That would differentiate skill types significantly and emphasize study and training plus innate Talent more for skills as they get more complicated and difficult.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Refplace

I thought of something else because of this post I wanted to address separately.
Changing skills to be 3+(Governing Attribute)/2 instead of based on the attribute could give us something worthwhile.

I agree. (Pyramid #3/65: By Default)

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I agree. (Pyramid #3/65: By Default)

I forgot about that article, it has some good thoughts. The adjustment for defaults would be worth looking at in this kind of change too.
What do you think of the progression in divisors for more difficult skills?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Refplace

I forgot about that article, it has some good thoughts. The adjustment for defaults would be worth looking at in this kind of change too.
What do you think of the progression in divisors for more difficult skills?

I keep the one point difference for each, as I wasn't trying to go the whole way. Alternate divisors like 2/3 for Easy skills and 1/3 for hard skills (or something like that) would be worth looking at.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

One way to approach this that I've toyed with quite a bit is to have this sort of resistance be treated like a parry. So 3+(Governing Attribute)/2.

This is a clever solution. I like the idea that attributes are used directly in rolls rather than via the (attribute/x)+y rolls common in many systems. There's a certain elegance to it. But it isn't always ideal . . .

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Refplace

I thought of something else because of this post I wanted to address separately.
Changing skills to be 3+(Governing Attribute)/2 instead of based on the attribute could give us something worthwhile.
Effective skill changed to 5 + (Controlling Attribute)/2 + applicable Talent and Technique.
That emphasizes and supports a greater use of Talents and Techniques while not requiring a complicated change or changing attribute costs.

At some point you've gotten rid of everything that cares about the actual attribute level, and it's hard to see why you're not dividing the attribute by two to begin with rather than doing so every time you ever use it.

Not that you'd be the only ttRPG inviting that question...

[Kromm]

The most important thing to recognize about Alternate Attributes is that the goal is not to work out what would be good for GURPS in general – say, in some future edition. The objective is to provide a toolkit for making specific campaigns less generic. Some aspects of GURPS are so "baked in" that they demand a lot of thought and recalculation. Most of these are things like building characters on points, rolling low for success, and using only d6. Attributes are like this, too, and require more "visualization aids" than do, say, vetting supplements, particular optional rules, or individual traits, all of which are straightforward (if labor-intensive) tasks. Those aids are what's in this supplement.

Thus, my examples shouldn't be taken as my thoughts about how GURPS "should" be – or might be, in the future. They're house rules tailored to two specific campaigns I ran in the past. But everything they propose is possible using ideas from Alternate Attributes!

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

At some point you've gotten rid of everything that cares about the actual attribute level, and it's hard to see why you're not dividing the attribute by two to begin with rather than doing so every time you ever use it.

Not that you'd be the only ttRPG inviting that question...

I explore and present the idea more fully here.
You have a point, though just dividing by 2 as Douglas suggested in his article By Default doesn't quite get the feel I proposed here.
The math only really needs to be done once for each character, unless the attributes change during the campaign and could be written up as say 10 (8) on the sheet for quick reference during a game and easy to implement in GURPS Character Assistant as it already has that function for Parries and such.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Kromm

This is a clever solution. I like the idea that attributes are used directly in rolls rather than via the (attribute/x)+y rolls common in many systems. There's a certain elegance to it. But it isn't always ideal . . .

I wrote about it more extensively with the eye specifically on HT in Defend vs. DEATH!

The comments have a few thoughts worth reading as well.

[Kallatari]

I'm inspired to provide my Attribute house rules for the last few years. I basically had "cascading" tiers of attributes, where I could use either the highest level (what GURPS Power-Ups 9 called realms), standard level, or detailed sub-attribute level, as desired for a given campaign (although I admittedly pretty much always chose the detailed sub-attribute level).

Physical [40/level]

Size [10/level]: Used for sized-based rule equations likes determining damage in collisions. There are no rolls or skills based on Size. Can be subdivided into for the following sub-attributes:

Height [5/level]:Determines your height; 10 = 1.75 m, modified proportionally to change in attribute), which in turns determines you SM. This attribute cannot be changed after character creation without a supernatural explanation (e.g., magic, switching bodies, etc.)

Mass [5/level]: Determines your mass; 10 = 75 kg, modified by cube of difference in attribute. This sub-attribute can only change by at most +/-10% without

Dexterity [20/level]: As per Basic. Can be subdivided into the following sub-attributes:

Balance [10/level]: Pretty much the sample attribute Agility in GURPS Power-Ups 9. Melee combat, flexibility, and movement-related skills.

Aim [10/level]: Pretty much the sample attribute Coordination in GURPS Power-Ups 9. Missile weapons and vehicle skills

Health [10/level]: As per Basic. Can be subdivided into the following sub-attributes:

Endurance [5/level]: Used for any type of resistance rolls, rolls to stay conscious, rolls to avoid dying, bleeding, etc.

Fitness [5/level]: Used for the HT-based skills.

Mental [40/level]:

Intelligence [20/level]: Was decoupled from both Will and Perception. Can be subdivided into the following sub-attributes:

Reason [10/level]: Just like the sample attribute Logic in GURPS Power-Ups 9.

Learning [10/level]: Just like the sample attribute Knowledge in GURPS Power-Ups 9.

Wisdom [10/level]: represents awareness.. the awareness of what's around you, and an awareness - and thus control - of self. Can be divided into sub-attributes of:

Perception [5/level]: As Perception characteristic from Basic, decoupled from IQ and upgraded to attribute, with a few additional skills added to the list.

Will [5/level]: As per Basic, decoupled from IQ and upgraded to an attribute.

Charisma [10/level]: the personality and social interaction aspect, including emotional intelligence. Also how well composed you are and able to remain yourself. Sub-attributes are:

Composure [5/level]: can substitute for Will when resisting fear or influence skills.

Presence [5/level]: social skills, including all influence skills, are based on Presence

Characteristics:

Lifting ST = SZ (Height) [5/level]. Basic Lift is derived from Lifting ST.
Striking ST = SZ (Mass) [3/level]. Determines melee damage.
HP = SZ (Mass) [2/level]
FP = HT (Fitness) [3/level]
GP = Lifting ST. For "Grappling Points" instead of Control Points, using the newer grappling rules from Douglas.
Basic Speed = (HT (Fitness) + DX (Balance))/4.
The others characteristics remain the same.

Comparing what I've been using for the last while to the advice in GURPS Power-Ups 9, I've noted the following:

- I much prefer the names from Powers-Up and will probably switch to them.

- DX (Balance) has a lot more skills than DX (Aim), and I wonder if it should cost more... perhaps raising it to [15/level], making raw DX worth [25/level].

- HT (Endurance). I've noticed the same issues as Kromm reported. It makes combat monsters that never drop. However, I have no skills based on it. So perhaps [5/level] is ok as a price. But then should HT (Fitness) be worth more as it influences Basic Speed (and thus Move), FP, and has skills linked to it.

- IQ (Reason) has several more skills than IQ (Learning), so I wonder if Reason should be increased to [15/level], much like DX (Balance). The exception is campaigns with magic, where spells are IQ (Learning), which makes that trait more desirable for mages.

- From in-game experience, Charisma (Composure) never gets used or bought from my players. They much prefer Will - or traits like Fearlessness - and I've been wondering for a while what to do with it. I'm currently contemplating that it becomes the only attribute you can use to resist Fear and influence skills with (as opposed to your choice of the highest of the two), leaving Will for supernatural resistance rolls. I don't plan on removing Composure as it keeps my attribute list symmetrical... which granted is nothing more than aesthetics, but I happen to like that.

I've frequently debated whether I wanted a "Power" attribute, on which to base supernatural powers, but so far I have seen no need for it. While it might be nice to have a "Mana Points" characteristic based of a "Magery" attribute, I've found that Energy Reserve works well enough for me.