[Fantasy][Magic] Divine spellcasting, real-world religions, and fantasy settings

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

I think I've heard you talk about this before, but remind me of your specific complaints? Personally, I think it might be interesting to have a system where shamanism isn't its own "power" but really more about social advantages and knowledge of spirits. Many shamans might use Magery-based spellcasting or psionics to aid them in their dealings with spirits, but supernatural traits wouldn't be the thing that makes a shaman.

It is entirely possible to make Shamans with Spirit Empathy, Group of Allies with Summonable and Minions - then you colour it with fluff like the tatoos of serpents in your body, but when you unleash the spirits, the tattoos move away from your skin and the snakes attack, See Invisible (to see the Spirits), Insubstantiality (in case you can move "physically" into the spirit world, if that's something that fits your game, even if only at a "high level skill"), Allies and Contacts amongst spirits - Spiritual Contacts would work greatly for a Shaman that is constantly asking for information, knowledge and wisdom from the Spirits. It also fits greatly with the idea of a Shaman if you consider "payment" - so, the Shaman need to perform rituals and prayers and sacrifices on regular basis as a form of "payment" for his "Contacts". Thus "Contacts" goes from a social advantage to a factual "power". An Ally can be a Familiar, a spirit incorporated into matter or a spirit possessing and controling a material form or body, and a Patron can be a Totem guardian. Each one of those can grant some "magic" abilities to the Shaman that do not originate from him, but rather from the spirit, and that are laid at his disposition as long as the Shaman keeps his end of the bargain on some sort of "contract".

The Advantage "Contacts" may even have the "Summonable" enhancement, which usually is only ever for Allies, but it fits very well for spirits. For example, you may have the Archimedes, the Owl spirit of knowledge as a "Spiritual Contact" (better call this "Power" as "Spirit Guide"), and before you enter the Mythic Planes or the Shadowlands or the Abyss or the 1000 Heavens or any other plane, you always summon Archy to guide you. Or you summon Archy to explain what the hell is that mass of tentacles in the center of Manhathan and how to stop it.

The Shaman may also have the ability to "summon" other spirits, or perhaps he can ask his Familiar or his Totem summon other spirits on his behalf, and then try to make a bargain with them on the spot - EXACTLY like you bribe someone to become a "temporary Contact" under the description of the Contact advantage, here you ask for a favor of a spirit under the promisse of payment - for example, let's say that you need to enter an incinerator to retrieve the Stone of Doom that Dr Evil threw there. So, you call The Great Eagle, your Totem, and ask it to call for an Efriti for help - yes, you are that desperate. The Great Eagle isnt pleased with that idea and normally wouldnt do it, but understands the urgency and thus sends a "spiritual S.O.S radio" over the elemental plane of fire. A few seconds later, an Efriti shows up, ready for some juicy bargain. So, our Shaman begs for help to make her immune from the fire of the incinerator, which the Efriti is happy to Oblige, IF the shaman agrees to burn in sacred ritual in a fire made from the wood of a three that was used by a suicidal to hang himself, and in that fire the shaman has to burn a rare tome of Jenie summoning and bidding from the Batini mages of Damascus. Good luck with that.

There are many routes for VERY powerful Shamans that dont really have any inner powers, relying instead on a ton of spiritual bargaining. For instance, the Shaman may have a "magic" bottle with endless water, but that's however just the fruit of a bargain with "Aqualirium, the great protector of the seventh sea of the depts", who promissed you a bottle with infinite water if in exchange you never refused to give to drink to ANYONE that is thirsty.

Those small pacts can have INSANELY powerful potential for story hooks. For example, a demon that already knows Aqualirium's fame and knows his modus operandi, could lure your Shaman into a trap by "please, give me to drink, for I am thirsty", particularly if this demon unleashes a powerful curse in anyone that touches him.

Some other times (MANY times actually), it's the Spirits that come after you to ask for favors - "Shaman, my florest has been defieled, help me bring justice to the perpatretors of that sin and I'll grant you the power to heal any non corrupted living creature with your hands, as long as you never defile a florest!"

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

I think I've heard you talk about this before, but remind me of your specific complaints? Personally, I think it might be interesting to have a system where shamanism isn't its own "power" but really more about social advantages and knowledge of spirits. Many shamans might use Magery-based spellcasting or psionics to aid them in their dealings with spirits, but supernatural traits wouldn't be the thing that makes a shaman.

Originally Posted by KarlKost

It is entirely possible to make Shamans with Spirit Empathy, Group of Allies with Summonable and Minions - then you colour it with fluff like the tatoos of serpents in your body, but when you unleash the spirits, the tattoos move away from your skin and the snakes attack, See Invisible (to see the Spirits), Insubstantiality (in case you can move "physically" into the spirit world, if that's something that fits your game, even if only at a "high level skill"), Allies and Contacts amongst spirits - Spiritual Contacts would work greatly for a Shaman that is constantly asking for information, knowledge and wisdom from the Spirits. It also fits greatly with the idea of a Shaman if you consider "payment" - so, the Shaman need to perform rituals and prayers and sacrifices on regular basis as a form of "payment" for his "Contacts". Thus "Contacts" goes from a social advantage to a factual "power". An Ally can be a Familiar, a spirit incorporated into matter or a spirit possessing and controling a material form or body, and a Patron can be a Totem guardian. Each one of those can grant some "magic" abilities to the Shaman that do not originate from him, but rather from the spirit, and that are laid at his disposition as long as the Shaman keeps his end of the bargain on some sort of "contract".


Some other times (MANY times actually), it's the Spirits that come after you to ask for favors - "Shaman, my florest has been defieled, help me bring justice to the perpatretors of that sin and I'll grant you the power to heal any non corrupted living creature with your hands, as long as you never defile a florest!"

Pretty much this :)
FYI Spirit Guide was an advantage in GURPS Third Edition, I forget which book had it but it was basically Ally that would only talk with you and offer advice.
Just using powers or spells to represent a shaman really misses out on their flavor, making them effectively another mage.
My shamans have powers that are innate and those that come from spirits. Its why I made Shamanic power modifier in GURPS Powers: Totem and Nature Spirits so complicated and did not use Spirit from GURPS Powers.

Innate powers would include Astral Projection to go into the spirit world, perhaps versions for entering the dream world, possibly creating Tulpas, and the ability to see and communicate with spirits.
Spirit granted powers through Channeling such as Spirit Vessel and Totem Bearer represent Voodoo and other traditions.
Affliction can represent being blessed or cursed by spirits, especially with the Variable Enhancement modifier (GURPS Power-Ups 4: Enhancements) as can other abilities.
Ally, Contact, and Patron all are good for representing spirits and building spirits as Allies should be easier with GURPS Template Toolkit: Spirits. when it comes out.

The still missing pieces (in my mind) are expanded guidelines for interacting with spirits. Players and GMs need to know what spirits want to make abilities like Medium more useful. And either a Powers based approach to handling abilities represented by what a spirit does - especially for GMs averse to a lot of Allies or players who want a more "hands on" feel.
The latter can also be done with spells, though I do not feel any of the current magic systems handle that really well. The closest is probably Book/Path but it lacks a spell design system, so I built one.
Even then though Book/Path needs tweaking to better fit the more social aspect of shamanic magic.
I might write that up for a future Pyramid kickstarter but it would need some lead time. Also it probably would be too crunchy.

Crunchy material is best as a supplement, especially for me as I greatly benefit from the playtests where I get reader feedback. Too often things I think are clear and obvious are not and have to be rewritten. Unfortunately I do not have a wide base of private proofreaders and going a year or two between projects complicates things. I forget some writing lessons learned before, during that time gap. But I think my biggest area for improvement is not assuming the reader knows what I know or rather thinks like I do. Playtests are fantastic shakedowns for that, while I get better from practice.

Summary
I wrote my last two supplements specifically as part of making shamans more accessible and fun to play. GURPS Powers: Totem and nature Spirits handles Channeling and Spirit Vessel with some of the more typical examples. GURPS Template Toolkits: Spirits being rewritten after the playtest gives the GM some tools and examples to more quickly and consistently build spirits to interact with and point totals for using them as Allies. And I have two more supplements waiting to be pitched. If I think there is sufficient interest I might also write up that Book/Path project as either an article or a supplement.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Just using powers or spells to represent a shaman really misses out on their flavor, making them effectively another mage.

Indeed, it's so boring to have clerics and shamans AND druids (or others) to just be "those other spellcasters with those other slightly (but not much) lists of spells"

Originally Posted by Refplace

My shamans have powers that are innate and those that come from spirits. Its why I made Shamanic power modifier in GURPS Powers: Totem and Nature Spirits so complicated and did not use Spirit from GURPS Powers.

Agree 100%. Im having a few ideas, I think I'll make a new thread just for Shamans, if that's ok for the forum moderators.

Originally Posted by Refplace

Innate powers would include Astral Projection to go into the spirit world, perhaps versions for entering the dream world, possibly creating Tulpas, and the ability to see and communicate with spirits.

I guess that Astral Projection is not necessary for all games, althought it is a possibility to have. In some settings, Shamans may only talk and see spirits. Or perhaps Astral Projection could be a "high level" skill to have. In DF for example, that could be a power that needed a few "upgrades" or "lvl ups" before being "unlockable". In other settings it could be avaiable from the get go, perhaps with Unreliable limitation that can be purchased as the Shaman gets more experienced.

Originally Posted by Refplace

Spirit granted powers through Channeling such as Spirit Vessel and Totem Bearer represent Voodoo and other traditions.
Affliction can represent being blessed or cursed by spirits, especially with the Variable Enhancement modifier (GURPS Power-Ups 4: Enhancements) as can other abilities.

Several "Powers" could be constructed with advantages (Healing Hands probably a very common one, just as curses/blessings with Afliction or not), and I had an idea about "Permanent", "Recurring" and "Temporary" powers which I'll explain a little bellow.

However, I first want to discuss Channeling.
On some settings, particularly, maybe the Shaman doesnt exactly channel spiritual energies, instead he calls the spirit, make a bargain and the spirit itself manifests in the physical plane and "cast the spell" while the Shaman watches.

In others (such as the hidden conspiracy magic of the Cabal), maybe it's impossible for spirits to manifest or interact with the material plane, or only very potent ones can, or at least it is very very hard to do so. In that case, Channeling may be mandatory.

In the case interacting with the physical plane is too hard for the spirits, Shamans may become a valuable asset for them, maybe even becoming the center of spiritual conflicts and diplomacy, manipulation etc.

Originally Posted by Refplace

Ally, Contact, and Patron all are good for representing spirits and building spirits as Allies should be easier with GURPS Template Toolkit: Spirits. when it comes out.

A good Patron for a Shaman would also be a "Mentor", a more experienced Shaman that can make introductions into several "spiritual courts" and give advices on etiquette and diplomacy, not just a "Totem Patron"

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

I guess that Astral Projection is not necessary for all games, althought it is a possibility to have.

It fits most shaman but not all so I want it as an option but not a requirement.

Originally Posted by KarlKost

However, I first want to discuss Channeling.
On some settings, particularly, maybe the Shaman doesnt exactly channel spiritual energies, instead he calls the spirit, make a bargain and the spirit itself manifests in the physical plane and "cast the spell" while the Shaman watches.

In others (such as the hidden conspiracy magic of the Cabal), maybe it's impossible for spirits to manifest or interact with the material plane, or only very potent ones can, or at least it is very very hard to do so. In that case, Channeling may be mandatory.

In the case interacting with the physical plane is too hard for the spirits, Shamans may become a valuable asset for them, maybe even becoming the center of spiritual conflicts and diplomacy, manipulation etc.


A good Patron for a Shaman would also be a "Mentor", a more experienced Shaman that can make introductions into several "spiritual courts" and give advices on etiquette and diplomacy, not just a "Totem Patron"

Agreed.
Channeling for Spirit Vessel type powers works great for a lot of shaman but not everyone. My system is geared towards several types of shaman so players can have a lot of variety in building their own.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Pretty much this :)
FYI Spirit Guide was an advantage in GURPS Third Edition, I forget which book had it but it was basically Ally that would only talk with you and offer advice.
Just using powers or spells to represent a shaman really misses out on their flavor, making them effectively another mage.
My shamans have powers that are innate and those that come from spirits. Its why I made Shamanic power modifier in GURPS Powers: Totem and Nature Spirits so complicated and did not use Spirit from GURPS Powers.

Innate powers would include Astral Projection to go into the spirit world, perhaps versions for entering the dream world, possibly creating Tulpas, and the ability to see and communicate with spirits.
Spirit granted powers through Channeling such as Spirit Vessel and Totem Bearer represent Voodoo and other traditions.
Affliction can represent being blessed or cursed by spirits, especially with the Variable Enhancement modifier (GURPS Power-Ups 4: Enhancements) as can other abilities.
Ally, Contact, and Patron all are good for representing spirits and building spirits as Allies should be easier with GURPS Template Toolkit: Spirits. when it comes out.

The still missing pieces (in my mind) are expanded guidelines for interacting with spirits. Players and GMs need to know what spirits want to make abilities like Medium more useful. And either a Powers based approach to handling abilities represented by what a spirit does - especially for GMs averse to a lot of Allies or players who want a more "hands on" feel.
The latter can also be done with spells, though I do not feel any of the current magic systems handle that really well. The closest is probably Book/Path but it lacks a spell design system, so I built one.
Even then though Book/Path needs tweaking to better fit the more social aspect of shamanic magic.
I might write that up for a future Pyramid kickstarter but it would need some lead time. Also it probably would be too crunchy.

This assessment seems rather unfair to DF 9. The Shaman found there—like the other three occupational templates in the book—is pretty heavily focused on Allies. Channeling, Medium, and Spirit Empathy are all mandatory for them, while by default they invest less in IQ and Power Investiture than Clerics or Druids do. While they don't entirely eschew spellcasting, their spell list is much shorter than the one clerics get, and heavily focused on stuff that helps them interact with spirits. I'm not saying there's no room to improve on DF 9's treatment but it doesn't seem like such a terrible starting place.

[KarlKost]

Now, what I meant about "Permanent", "Recurring" and "Temporary" Powers:
Permanent Powers are the spiritual blessings you get basically forever, as long as you keep your side of the bargain - Healing Hands as long as you do your daily prayers and follow the "Path or Oath of the Shaman" (we may discuss what that may be), therefore it is an Advantage with some required disadvantages like Duty for example. Sometimes you may be blinded - a disadvantage commonly associated with the craft.
Recurring Powers are powers that come from bargains with spirits that you usually trade with on a regular basis. For example, an Ourija may give you the ability to get glimpses of the future, but in order to do so you have to summon it, performing the correct rituals, and make an appropriate offering - funny fact, that's actually my wife's religion. Im brazilian, Im an atheist but my wife is Umbandist, a religion which have Ourijas as spiritual guides - that's irl. So, in that particular case, the ritual involves dances and songs that induce a trance. After the trance, the entity basically POSSESSES you. And they enjoy offerings in drinks and cigarattes.
So, you dont exactly have the power, but there are rituals to request it.
In terms of mechanics, that can be done with SEVERAL limitations, like material components for the offerings, extra time, limitations that require rituals, temporary disadvantages and many many others (sorry, I cant take the Gurps book right now, I dont remember all the names from memory)
Lastly "Temporary Powers" would be a "One Night Only" bargain. You summon a frog spirit to allow you to catch flies just once, set the bargain and off he goes.
In terms of mechanics, I dont know, Modular Abilities perhaps? Any better idea?

Originally Posted by Refplace

The still missing pieces (in my mind) are expanded guidelines for interacting with spirits. Players and GMs need to know what spirits want to make abilities like Medium more useful. And either a Powers based approach to handling abilities represented by what a spirit does - especially for GMs averse to a lot of Allies or players who want a more "hands on" feel.

Absolutely. We need something like a "Table of Bargains", with a list of the "size of the favor" asked by the Shaman compared to "Sample price" asked by the Spirit.

Now that Im thinking about it, that may be easier than I initially thought. Character Points can form a good initial base for that, for example, a 20 pts Duty could be a fitting price for a 20 pts "Power" for example.

The trick part would be trying to balance information or favors (like introducing you to a powerful Spirit that has what you want) in exchange of more exoteric pay (like consacrating in the proper manner a cow to be offered as a sacrifice to a wolf spirit).

I guess that Contacts has the general prices for information and favors, please help me in that one, while the payment could follow a simple formula, like
Trivial (burn incense while chanting the name of the spirit) - 1 to 5 pts
Small (making a complex and long ritual) - 6 to 10 pts
Considerable (having a ritual with rare herbs with at least 10 followers during the Equinox) - 11 to 15
Major (burning a precious ancient tome made of silk with a great material value, having a ritual with 100 people performed during 4 consecutives full moons) - 16 to 30 pts
Massive or Unique (turning the Empire State building into a public temple to the spirit, self sacrifice) 31 to 50+ pts

Please, anybody willing to help here in such table is welcome.

Originally Posted by Refplace

The latter can also be done with spells, though I do not feel any of the current magic systems handle that really well. The closest is probably Book/Path but it lacks a spell design system, so I built one.
Even then though Book/Path needs tweaking to better fit the more social aspect of shamanic magic.
I might write that up for a future Pyramid kickstarter but it would need some lead time. Also it probably would be too crunchy.

No, spells arent a good idea.
Other aspect that just crossed my mind: Status, Fame, Reputation.
All of those could have a DIRECT impact on your Shaman's "Powers.
For instance, a positive reputation on the Elemental Water Plane could increase the "favors" you can request from Water Elementals - for example, a +2 reputation could allow you to ask a "temporary power" (related to water obviously) with a cost of 7 points, instead of the usual 5, for a trivial price. Or the +2 could behave as a "Talent", adding +2 to the rolls of ANY channeling of water powers. At the same time, having 2 Infamy with the Fire court could reduce in 2 pts any bargain made with Fire Spirits and increase in 2 the dif of ANY powers or abilities gained by them.
Status would be a little... Special. As in, it would be a Spiritual Status. Maybe some favors require certain levels of Status, or getting an audience with certain Spirits require minimum Status. As an idea, a Shaman with Spiritual Status 3 is regarded as an equal (or maybe that would be best represented by Rank?). Again, anyone willing to make a table here, that's appreciated.

Originally Posted by Refplace

Summary
I wrote my last two supplements specifically as part of making shamans more accessible and fun to play. GURPS Powers: Totem and nature Spirits handles Channeling and Spirit Vessel with some of the more typical examples. GURPS Template Toolkits: Spirits being rewritten after the playtest gives the GM some tools and examples to more quickly and consistently build spirits to interact with and point totals for using them as Allies. And I have two more supplements waiting to be pitched. If I think there is sufficient interest I might also write up that Book/Path project as either an article or a supplement.

I think one very helpful thing would be a "bestiary", but rather than stats, a "bargain list", with lists of "wish lists" from sample spirits and another list of "offerings", which can detail what powers/favors/informations sample spirits can give and common things they may request.

Those simple things would make an awesome supplement of DF or just fantasy Shamans in general.

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by Refplace

The latter can also be done with spells, though I do not feel any of the current magic systems handle that really well. The closest is probably Book/Path but it lacks a spell design system, so I built one.
Even then though Book/Path needs tweaking to better fit the more social aspect of shamanic magic.
I might write that up for a future Pyramid kickstarter but it would need some lead time. Also it probably would be too crunchy.

Crunchy material is best as a supplement, especially for me as I greatly benefit from the playtests where I get reader feedback. Too often things I think are clear and obvious are not and have to be rewritten. Unfortunately I do not have a wide base of private proofreaders and going a year or two between projects complicates things. I forget some writing lessons learned before, during that time gap. But I think my biggest area for improvement is not assuming the reader knows what I know or rather thinks like I do. Playtests are fantastic shakedowns for that, while I get better from practice.

Originally Posted by Refplace

If I think there is sufficient interest I might also write up that Book/Path project as either an article or a supplement.

On the Book/Path stuff, I would recommend writing that up as a Thaumatology: Spirit Magic supplement, one that recapitulates the relevant material from Chapter 5 in Thaumatology so that it can function as a standalone supplement, and expands on it to include your stated innovations. That said, if the only way to get your innovations into print would be as a Pyramid article, I'd take that too. I just want it.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

This assessment seems rather unfair to DF 9. The Shaman found there—like the other three occupational templates in the book—is pretty heavily focused on Allies. Channeling, Medium, and Spirit Empathy are all mandatory for them, while by default they invest less in IQ and Power Investiture than Clerics or Druids do. While they don't entirely eschew spellcasting, their spell list is much shorter than the one clerics get, and heavily focused on stuff that helps them interact with spirits. I'm not saying there's no room to improve on DF 9's treatment but it doesn't seem like such a terrible starting place.

I am glad it included those but DF generally eschews social stuff and I feel having the advantages is not enough on its own. But its a matter of taste and everyone's point of view is equally valid.

Originally Posted by KarlKost

After the trance, the entity basically POSSESSES you. And they enjoy offerings in drinks and cigarattes.
So, you dont exactly have the power, but there are rituals to request it.
In terms of mechanics, that can be done with SEVERAL limitations, like material components for the offerings, extra time, limitations that require rituals, temporary disadvantages and many many others

Yeah limitations on powers is one way to do it. Another just bargaining with them, like going to any other NPC.

Originally Posted by KarlKost

Lastly "Temporary Powers" would be a "One Night Only" bargain. You summon a frog spirit to allow you to catch flies just once, set the bargain and off he goes.
In terms of mechanics, I dont know, Modular Abilities perhaps? Any better idea?

Character-point powered abilities such as Favor is one way to handle this.

Originally Posted by KarlKost

Absolutely. We need something like a "Table of Bargains", with a list of the "size of the favor" asked by the Shaman compared to "Sample price" asked by the Spirit.


Please, anybody willing to help here in such table is welcome.

Other aspect that just crossed my mind: Status, Fame, Reputation.

I won't really go into details here as I hope to write it :)
I will say this though, I think GURPS Social Engineering is a very good start here. the main problem is most people wont know what a spirit wants or be able to easily assign a value to various services.

Your example is perfect but a lot of people wont really be familiar with that kind of ritual. In many cultures spirits crave "pleasures of the flesh" as its not something they can readily get themselves so its a luxury.
Offer someone something they want in return for something you want. GURPS can handle this better than most other systems. We just need some examples and guidelines, most of the rules are already there.
Sure a lot of this can be researched online or in books, but some wont even know where to start looking.
So addressing that is on my to do list.

Originally Posted by dataweaver

On the Book/Path stuff, I would recommend writing that up as a Thaumatology: Spirit Magic supplement, one that recapitulates the relevant material from Chapter 5 in Thaumatology so that it can function as a standalone supplement, and expands on it to include your stated innovations. That said, if the only way to get your innovations into print would be as a Pyramid article, I'd take that too. I just want it.

Well I have the spell creation rules as part of my Affinity Magic system which I hope to write in someday. However I think a Thaumatology supplement is not something I can get accepted at the moment. After I have written more stuff and can show interest in my work? Maybe.
A Pyramid 2023 Kickstarter though has a lower bar because the articles are short enough that they are lower risk to SJG. We shall see though, its a ways off.
However, glad to hear some interest!

[RGTraynor]

Coming in a little late to the party, but I have strong religions in my fantasy setting with strong and broad RP background and info: the shortest writeup for any faith (exclusive of the two pages' worth for each in the Religion Overview detailing the template for priests of that faith and a Harn-inspired page of "What do we think of ... (each other religion)") is six pages.

Not too many people play priests, it's true ... and the parties often do without healing beyond what a physician or an alchemist can do, as well. But that's a choice. I likewise have PC races few have ever played, nationalities few have ever played, roles few have ever played.

What I do as a GM is not worry about it. The tactical answer to "But we don't have a healbot!" is "Then you have to ratchet down the degree to which frontal assault is your answer to everything, huh?" Over the years, a whopping lot of players have bought into that concept ... aided, likely, by the truth that GURPS combat tends to deter mindless, knee-jerk frontal assault anyway. Those who do stick around. Those who don't are likely among those who've drifted away after a few sessions.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Refplace

I am glad it included those but DF generally eschews social stuff and I feel having the advantages is not enough on its own. But its a matter of taste and everyone's point of view is equally valid.

This is fair. Handling of NPC spirits who aren't Allies, Patrons, etc. is left as something of an exercise to the reader. That part could definitely be improved upon.