Eli creating Humans...

[naraht]

Just thinking about *what else could Eli be doing*... Eli can create Humans (he did so for Adam, Eve and Lilith.

Maybe Eli is creating Humans with disadvantages which take them back to Human norm for everything else other than resisting Demonic (and Angelic?) resonances, songs and other similar things?

[Azel]

I dig it. Could work, and also get him into a lot of hot water, too.

Yet I often just see Eli, as a human, amble about and watch other humans create. It's a rather romantic view. In a way though that might be his most dangerous plan: to understand humanity so well that he can attempt to co-create with them. Angels and humans learning to play human relationships with each other positively, like instruments, (... leaving sweet, sweet music *cough*). Could be a coup-de-grace move.

So, what would be his goal besides creating an "ubermensch" appropriate for resisting the Great War? Because, as interesting as it may be, it does sound rather... un-angelic (Tampering with God's new favorite and all. Very Eden experiment all over again). Perhaps my biases about phrenology and eugenics are coloring my view, though. Ooh, I could see it being a great "Jump" condition if Eli decides to fall, however!

[ladyarcana55]

Actually in a story twist I was going to do with my group...

Eli was captured and Hell is trying to get him to Fall. To help, they took some of his Forces and put them in a bunch of other demons, one from each Band. Well, the Lilim went Bright.

The original intention was for the PCs to figure out what is going on (because she is exhibiting Creation abilities). Eventually they figure out that Eli had been captured and that he needs them to hunt down the other demons so they can carve out one of their Forces. The freed Force would go to the Bright.

Eventually, when they got all of the Forces freed and returned to the Bright, she would find herself pregnant. The child is actually Eli. That was how they were going to free him. The reason why I was going to have it done this way, via birth, was to say that Eli wanted to know what it was like being the Created. Also, his time in Hell weakened him and he couldn't muster the strength to create his own vessel, so he did it the most sensible way her could.

Sorry for the rambling, here's my point...

Would it really be out of the question for Eli to want to go through the process of being born? Birth is the ultimate act of Creation, why wouldn't he want to take part in it? He's always been on the other end of that process, so to speak.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

Actually in a story twist I was going to do with my group...

(snip)

Would it really be out of the question for Eli to want to go through the process of being born? Birth is the ultimate act of Creation, why wouldn't he want to take part in it? He's always been on the other end of that process, so to speak.

Out of the question? If it's okay by you, I'd love to steal that whole scenario wholesale. I love it.

[ladyarcana55]

Originally Posted by Jason

Out of the question? If it's okay by you, I'd love to steal that whole scenario wholesale. I love it.

I'd be honored. Considering my group went *poof* before anything really interesting happened, I would love to see it plays out.

But there are a few other twists and turns I had planned. If you are interested I will PM some of them to you

[Phoenix42]

Well, since LadyArcana chipped in with her campaign variant (which, by the way, is completely awesome! ^^, I too may be stealing the Eli-birth concept (or would that be conception?) :) ) - here are my two cents about what Eli is getting up to in my campaign, as food for thought:

Eli is trying to "boost" humanity by enabling some humans to have direct communion with the Symphony. He is, in short, creating prophets. Previously, "prophet" was merely a name for people who were contacted by Gabriel, either through vision, dream, apparition or meeting ("and lo, an angel appeared..."). What with his sister being somewhat distracted atm, he has decided to take matters into his own hands. Naturally, this is as heretical as it gets, and Dominic will want his arse on a plate if he ever finds out.

His method for doing that (in my campaign at least) is to get hold of the mothers and/or fathers at an early age in order to change them so that when they give birth, they give birth to a prophet. The idea is that the prophets then have direct divine inspirations on a regular basis, thus bringing humanity back to the fold of Heaven. Naturally, being Eli's brainchildren (not true children, mind - they are human, they have just been tweaked), they all express the prophecies in creative and artistic ways...

However, there are a few quirks: The first batch of "experiments" failed. Some did so very badly. The best "version" he was able to produce was a boy born in the late 1940s who made prophecies in late 1950s London using pinball machines. However, even he was born with crippling physical and a few slight mental retardations. Nevertheless, seeing him, alone, even without understanding the messages he was handing on (which were encoded in the scores of the pinball games he was plaing), inspired many people, including a young Pete Townsend, who wrote the song Pinball Wizard as a reaction to it.

Incensed by the disastrous failures (and gaining dissonance for the harm he was causing, as a Mercurian), Eli left Heaven and went down to Earth to get an even better understanding of humanity. However, in attempting to understand all facets of humanity, he is running the risk of splitting himself up too often (see the Eli supplement).


Anyhoo, that's my take on the matter - personally, I think the idea that Eli would want to innoculate humanity against angelic and infernal intervention is a bit too much David - the Eli in my mind is too much an artist - and an artist wants to feel everything, rather than close himself off from the world. He would certainly be trying to create a new kind of human, but one that is in tune with heaven (y'know kid... in the flow... just feeling the vibes...) rather than immune to it.

[ladyarcana55]

Wow! Thanks so much! I'm glad you liked that one, I'm really excited. My thought is that if he really wants to understand humanity, what better way than to actually live life as a human?

I really can't see him re-making or modifying humans because God did the first plans and to modify it would be to modify God's plan. As an Arch I can't see him doing that.

EDIT:
Jason thought it was a good idea so I'll put this in here too.

In my original intention for my campaign, Eli had split himself into different aspects of himself. he did this so he can go to more places and tend to his Word in a more efficient manner, (talk about multitasking). He also did it to experience the world in as varied a manner as possible. Hell actually captured one of his aspects and were hoping that by making this one aspect Fall, it would eventually infect the others.

So when the Bright gives birth, it's actually the aspect of Eli that had been captured but Eli wanted to experience the process of being born first hand.

I am really enamoured with this idea because, really, the best way to understand something is to actually do it. I don't think it would be too far fetched for him to want to experience life as a human and see how Creation affects them on such an intimate level.

[Phoenix42]

I completely agree with the sentiment that doing is better than watching, and what is more important, I think Eli would too ;)

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

I really can't see him re-making or modifying humans because God did the first plans and to modify it would be to modify God's plan. As an Arch I can't see him doing that.

Hmm, maybe we're coming at it from different philosophies. I think he could well be modifying humans (though humanity as a whole would probably be too difficult, quite apart from ethical factors), since humans weren't created by God (with the exception of Adam, Eve and Lilith) directly, but evolved into something that God liked after the original Creation. That is, they are of course God's creations since the entire universe is his plan, but they are creations by proxy. Not that that makes them any less important, of course, it's just that there was no "original plan" that anyone is aware of.
And about the prophet thing, in my campaign, prophets have occurred naturally (or randomly, if you will), but it's a once-in-a-hundred-years-for-the-entire-species-if-you're-lucky thing. Eli's just jiggling the odds a bit. And if you consider that Eli and his angels are altering God's creation every time they interact with it (look at all those Eli artefacts), well, I don't think the whole policy on changing is that strict...

That being said, you have a point - it would be Vapulan at its best to actually think that one could "improve on" humans. Eli loves humanity, after all, and the idea that they would have to be in need of improvement per se is not like him. Which is why I like the version that he is simply giving a few people a power which puts all of humanity more in touch with heaven. Basically, it's what Gabriel used to do - and I like to think that Eli considers it an improvement, not on humanity, but on the idea of heavenly revelation.

[ISNorden]

Originally Posted by Phoenix42

Eli is trying to "boost" humanity by enabling some humans to have direct communion with the Symphony. He is, in short, creating prophets. Previously, "prophet" was merely a name for people who were contacted by Gabriel, either through vision, dream, apparition or meeting ("and lo, an angel appeared...").

In my own campaign, Gabriel is the Archangel of the Divine Word--a supreme herald and spokesman of Heaven, not a punisher of cruelty. It makes sense that he'd still be inspiring prophets and preachers, especially since this version of Gabriel isn't insane. :-) But I digress...

What with [Gabriel] being somewhat distracted atm, [Eli] has decided to take matters into his own hands. Naturally, this is as heretical as it gets, and Dominic will want his arse on a plate if he ever finds out.

I'd see this as Gabriel and Eli collaborating "under the table" in my campaign--a potential scandal in Heaven, and good reason for Dominic to insist that both Archangels be put on trial.

His method for doing that (in my campaign at least) is to get hold of the mothers and/or fathers at an early age in order to change them so that when they give birth, they give birth to a prophet. The idea is that the prophets then have direct divine inspirations on a regular basis, thus bringing humanity back to the fold of Heaven. Naturally, being Eli's brainchildren (not true children, mind - they are human, they have just been tweaked), they all express the prophecies in creative and artistic ways...

Hmmm, that would explain why Nostradamus used cryptic poetry to write his prophecies down (the book Valefor stole contained what N. was already recording). The same goes for Mother Shipton's poetic prophesies...and various works of religious art that show hidden meanings in the color of a building or the placement of a minor character.

However, there are a few quirks: The first batch of "experiments" failed. Some did so very badly. [Pinball Wizard prophet example...]

I'd personally count Leonardo da Vinci, Nostradamus, Mother Shipton, and possibly Dante Aligheri as four of Eli's early successes. They were probably exceptions that proved the rule, though! (During one adventure with a newly Redeemed PC, a Reliever NPC referred to Dante as "that mad Italian in the Halls of Creation"--describing the Divine Comedy as a mixture of Church tradition, popular misconceptions, and a dash of genuine Truth when it came to descriptions of the Celestial world.)

Incensed by the disastrous failures (and gaining dissonance for the harm he was causing, as a Mercurian), Eli left Heaven and went down to Earth to get an even better understanding of humanity. However, in attempting to understand all facets of humanity, he is running the risk of splitting himself up too often (see the Eli supplement).

Again, this makes good sense; Eli knew he was wrong and wanted to correct his mistakes. No artist, especially one who creates for the glory of God, wants to produce bad work!

Anyhoo, that's my take on the matter - personally, I think the idea that Eli would want to innoculate humanity against angelic and infernal intervention is a bit too much David - the Eli in my mind is too much an artist - and an artist wants to feel everything, rather than close himself off from the world. He would certainly be trying to create a new kind of human, but one that is in tune with heaven (y'know kid... in the flow... just feeling the vibes...) rather than immune to it.

Very well said. Eli's motives for tinkering with humans may be pure, but the results usually aren't--something that troubles him both as an artist and as an angel.

[Azel]

These are fun ideas guys. Keep up the good work! :D (and now to Valefo -- *ahem* -- Janus freely these ideas for future campaigns. :P)