Reducing the number of weapon skills

[talonthehand]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

That much I gathered. But I don't understand why that is desirable.

The level of complexity required to have fun varies from person to person, and there hits a point on either end where things are too simple or too byzantine to make a game night fun.

If you haven't had a player sigh and say "this is all just so complicated" before, then you're in a good spot for your rules set. I have, and it can take the wind out of your sails.

To answer the OP - at first glance it seems fine to me, but obviously make sure it hits the entire table equally.

[AlexanderHowl]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Pretty sure the different skills being different difficulty was a typo. I'd agree with all the points above.

I would personally break down Melee Weapons into two VH skills: One-Handed and Two-Handed, with One-Handed including Cloak and Shield.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Oh no. -4 is generally "no one will bother with it". -3 Defaults are theoretically useful bt you seldom see them used. You need to get down to (at least) -2s before you see them used at all often.

You need a main skill at Attribute +3 before defaulting to Skill-4 is even as good as a single cp in the Skill itself. That's 12 cp in your "main" Skill. That's a lot for someone who's not a weapon's master.

It'll probbaly be much more efficint in the long run to buy up Dex and spend single cps to get that broad range of weapon Skills even if you find uses for them. I had a character who was basically a profesional duelist and that's what he did. Even though his Two-handed Sword-24 gave him Broadsword-20 he bought up the Skills as normal rather than trying to create a web of Defaults. A single cp gave him Skill-21 in any weapon (22 in Knife).

DX is just a better investment than a single high skill. The only real reason you'd want to do that is if you have another attribute at a high level that your off-attribute skill is good enough for and you can't explain Attribute Substitution. For instance, an IQ20 character with a single weapon skill is great.

But as for that -4, the point was really for high skill users. People with high DX don't need it, it's the characters who invest heavily in a given skill that do. With -4, you can know you can pick up any weapon and be fine with it if you are amazing with any given weapon. (Then again, I also use a house rule that makes buying up from default not a trap)

Originally Posted by Kromm

Honestly, I believe that would be worth a playtest! Things I'd change:

• I'd make all three skills Very Hard. That's easier to remember and doesn't hint that the designer believes armed melee combat is simpler than other combat. (If anything should be easier, Ranged Weapons – which replaces Beam Weapons, Crossbow, Gunner, Guns, Liquid Projector, Thrown Weapon, and other DX/E skills – seems like the right choice.)
  
  
• I'd add strict, perk-governed familiarity with specific weapons – not merely types. Without the perk, you'd fight at -2 to skill. So you'd see people with Melee Weapons (DX/VH) and a couple of perks like "Weapon Familiarity (Long Axe)" and "Weapon Familiarity (Small Knife)," or with Melee Weapons (One-Handed Swords) (DX/H) and a couple of perks like "Weapon Familiarity (Rapier)" and "Weapon Familiarity (Large Knife)."
  
  
• I'd add a "Skill Modifier" stat to weapons that works much like the "Parry" stat, but that gives a bonus to attack, feint, etc. with simpler weapons. For instance, most knives might get +2 or even +3 (so they're effectively Easy), weapons commonly given to levies and recruits (notably spears) would get +1 or +2, most weapons commonly used by professional warriors would get +1, but swords would get 0 for requiring so much study to master, while flails and other weirdness would get 0 for being ungainly.

I definitely agree on ranged weapons. I could even see making it Average, even though that would make Bow better (but then Bow could just get -1 to use). I'm not entirely sold on the perk, though. Maybe you get one weapon for free that you can use at full skill and everything else is -2?

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'd add strict, perk-governed familiarity with specific weapons – not merely types. Without the perk, you'd fight at -2 to skill. So you'd see people with Melee Weapons (DX/VH) and a couple of perks like "Weapon Familiarity (Long Axe)" and "Weapon Familiarity (Small Knife)," or with Melee Weapons (One-Handed Swords) (DX/H) and a couple of perks like "Weapon Familiarity (Rapier)" and "Weapon Familiarity (Large Knife)."

That seems overly harsh, although if instead of thinking of it as "You suffer a penalty without Familiarity," we think of it as "-2 is normal (essentially the skill is DX/VVVH), Familiarity represents focusing on a specific weapon," I feel it becomes more palatable. That said, if I opted for this route, I'd probably have Familiarity be for weapon groups (roughly matching with the old skills, or perhaps my shorter list).

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'd add a "Skill Modifier" stat to weapons that works much like the "Parry" stat, but that gives a bonus to attack, feint, etc. with simpler weapons. For instance, most knives might get +2 or even +3 (so they're effectively Easy), weapons commonly given to levies and recruits (notably spears) would get +1 or +2, most weapons commonly used by professional warriors would get +1, but swords would get 0 for requiring so much study to master, while flails and other weirdness would get 0 for being ungainly.[/LIST]

Honestly, if we think of all the various Melee Weapon skills (for example) as Optional Specializations of a master Melee Weapon skill, we could probably make the last simply DX/H, have weapons governed by Easy skills be at +1, Average at +0, and Hard at -1, for similar results to what you are describing.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I would personally break down Melee Weapons into two VH skills: One-Handed and Two-Handed, with One-Handed including Cloak and Shield.

There's a lot more in common with using a spear one handed and two handed than there is in using a knife and a one-handed flail, so if you're lumping a lot of skills together already, one-handed vs two-handed really isn't a good divider.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

I definitely agree on ranged weapons. I could even see making it Average, even though that would make Bow better (but then Bow could just get -1 to use). I'm not entirely sold on the perk, though. Maybe you get one weapon for free that you can use at full skill and everything else is -2?

Don't forget, there are DX/H ranged skills - Blowpipe, Sling, and Net. Taking from the above idea, however, we could make the Ranged skill DX/H, with the majority of weapons (thrown weapons, guns, beam weapons, etc) at +1, the tougher ones (like bows and atlatls) at +0, and the really hard ones (like slings) at -1.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Varyon

TThere's a lot more in common with using a spear one handed and two handed than there is in using a knife and a one-handed flail, so if you're lumping a lot of skills together already, one-handed vs two-handed really isn't a good divider.

The main divide that makes probably the most sense to me is 'balanced' versus 'unbalanced'. It's not perfect but the stance and movement differences seem most different along that divide. Mind, Shield and Cloak are bizarre but seem fine to throw in balanced (which does sort of make it the superior skill...)

Originally Posted by Varyon

Don't forget, there are DX/H ranged skills - Blowpipe, Sling, and Net. Taking from the above idea, however, we could make the Ranged skill DX/H, with the majority of weapons (thrown weapons, guns, beam weapons, etc) at +1, the tougher ones (like bows and atlatls) at +0, and the really hard ones (like slings) at -1.

There are, but just giving them a further penalty to use (like how Kromm gave a bonus for easy weapons) seems fine. Not to say it's perfectly realistic, but ranged combat is probably the hardest skill due to all the penalties and giving it a slight boost seems to help.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I suggest:

Melee Weapons: DX/H
Covers use of all melee weapons. Optional Speciality: any one weapon type.
Ranged Weapons: DX/VH
Covers use of all ranged weapons. Optional Speciality: any one weapon type.
Unarmed Combat: DX/VH
Covers unarmed combat. Optional Speciality: grappling, slams, striking.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Honestly, I believe that would be worth a playtest! Things I'd change:

• I'd make all three skills Very Hard. That's easier to remember and doesn't hint that the designer believes armed melee combat is simpler than other combat. (If anything should be easier, Ranged Weapons – which replaces Beam Weapons, Crossbow, Gunner, Guns, Liquid Projector, Thrown Weapon, and other DX/E skills – seems like the right choice.)
  
  
• I'd add strict, perk-governed familiarity with specific weapons – not merely types. Without the perk, you'd fight at -2 to skill. So you'd see people with Melee Weapons (DX/VH) and a couple of perks like "Weapon Familiarity (Long Axe)" and "Weapon Familiarity (Small Knife)," or with Melee Weapons (One-Handed Swords) (DX/H) and a couple of perks like "Weapon Familiarity (Rapier)" and "Weapon Familiarity (Large Knife)."
  
  
• I'd add a "Skill Modifier" stat to weapons that works much like the "Parry" stat, but that gives a bonus to attack, feint, etc. with simpler weapons. For instance, most knives might get +2 or even +3 (so they're effectively Easy), weapons commonly given to levies and recruits (notably spears) would get +1 or +2, most weapons commonly used by professional warriors would get +1, but swords would get 0 for requiring so much study to master, while flails and other weirdness would get 0 for being ungainly.

IMHO the skills are a little too broad. Contrast these with the following wildcard skills:
*Bow!
*Sword!
*Whip!

It comes off as trying to have wildcard skills without having actual wildcard skills. More over if mundane skills are broader than wildcards skills then that is clear sign something is wonked.

Also when you think about it these skills are so close to Weapon Master (small to medium class) [30 to 35] that it isn't funny, And when mundane drivel cinematic advantages and are far cheaper something has clearly gone wrong.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by maximara

IMHO the skills are a little too broad. Contrast these with the following wildcard skills:
*Bow!
*Sword!
*Whip!

I might have already said it earlier, but weapon wildcard skills seem too niche and do too little IMHO. Even talk about Weapon Talent at 15pts per level seems a bit high considering how close that is to DX without Basic Speed.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by maximara

IMHO the skills are a little too broad. Contrast these with the following wildcard skills:

You're making the assumption I think wildcard skills are a good idea...

[maximara]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

I might have already said it earlier, but weapon wildcard skills seem too niche and do too little IMHO. Even talk about Weapon Talent at 15pts per level seems a bit high considering how close that is to DX without Basic Speed.

You missed the point I was raised ie the standard skills come of better than the weapon wildcard skills.

Originally Posted by Anthony

You're making the assumption I think wildcard skills are a good idea...

They are a good idea but like any tool they are not appropriate for every setting.

Fictional characters that likely have Wildcard skills:
*James Bond (movies): Spy!
*Washu Hakubi (most of the 13+ Tenchi continuities): Inventor! and Science!
*Artemus Gordon (The Wild Wild West TV series): Spy!
*Professor Roy Hinkley aka The Professor of Gilligan's Island: Inventor! and Science!
*Some interpretations of Sherlock Holmes (not the canonal version): Detective!
*Alfred Pennyworth (Batman's butler): Servant!
*Doctor Stephen Vincent Strange: Occult!

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by maximara

They are a good idea but like any tool they are not appropriate for every setting.

My point is that I think that ordinary (non-wildcard) skills should be much broader, which mostly eliminates the point of wildcard skills. Wildcard skills are a solution to "GURPS skills are excessively narrow", but I'd rather solve that more directly.