Move and Attack

[corwyn]

Are any attack modifiers disallowed when using MaA?

I assume you can't use Deceptive Attack since your effective skill aside from DA has to be at least 12 and MaA is capped at 9

If I have Broadsword - 24, can I make two attacks (-6) at the neck (-5) for 9-?

If the answer is different for DFRPG, what would that be?

[kirbwarrior]

The cap doesn't happen until all modifiers. You can drop your skill to 10 with DA then MaA will shunt it to 9. Same for any other modifiers, you really might as well drop your skill to 9 because it's 'free'.

There's also a technique that lets you buy off the penalty for MaA. If you fully buy it off the cap goes away. Sadly I can't remember what book its in but it's very cinematic.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

The cap doesn't happen until all modifiers. You can drop your skill to 10 with DA then MaA will shunt it to 9. Same for any other modifiers, you really might as well drop your skill to 9 because it's 'free'.

That is not correct. The rules say "You may not reduce your final effective skill below 10 with a Deceptive Attack, which normally limits it to skilled fighters." So, no Deceptive Move and Attacks. You can do lots of other things with a MaA, like aim for specific hit locations, but Deceptive Attacks are out.

[Plane]

At first I thought the only way for it to make sense to ban Deceptive Attacks (because that involves at least taking a -2 to skill penalty) is if the DA penalty were applied AFTER reducing skill to 9...

If that's the case then why would other penalties be applied BEFORE reducing skill to 9?

But now I something like because "the final effective skill can never be below 10 on a DA" that even though DA itself doesn't reduce skill that low, you can't use it?

Slam might be exception since there's no skill 9 cap

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Rupert

"You may not reduce your final effective skill below 10 with a Deceptive Attack, which normally limits it to skilled fighters."

'With' is incredibly important. You aren't decreasing skill below 10 with DA, you're doing it with something else that doesn't care what other penalties you took (that and MaA technically used 'adjusted' instead of 'effective'). You do still have to worry about the -4 which makes it harder (you need 16 skill to even be allowed a DA on MaA).

EDIT: Martial Arts disagrees with me. My guess is this might be the intent, but reading Basic only I still stand by MaA allowing DA, but introducing Martial Arts rules into the game takes the option away. You could interpret this as MA talking about adding more realism to MaA. I guess this might just be a new house rule for me if it isn't the intent since MaA is already so bad that I don't see a need to limit it like this.

[Rupert]

If you can reduce the hit chance with DA, and then drop it below 10 with further penalties, that means you can cheat caps by altering the order you apply penalties, and that seems counter to a sensible reading of the rules.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Rupert

If you can reduce the hit chance with DA, and then drop it below 10 with further penalties, that means you can cheat caps by altering the order you ally penalties, and that seems counter to a sensible reading of the rules.

The main difference is that MaA is a cap. With other penalties, you can arrange things however you want. Say, -6 darkness -4 MaA -6 DA Skill 26. No matter how you arrange the penalties, you get skill 10. Replace MaA with hand, same thing. Or replace DA with a target of SM -6, same thing. You always get skill 10. Once all modifiers are determined, MaA says "max 9" and brings that down to 9. You could remove the darkness and DA and still have 9 skill. Add in -4 from Shock and -4 from off hand and you have 14, but the cap brings it to 9.

Mind, I'm definitely reading things very much like I'd read rules in a card game or similar. And it just seems too weird that you can't use any amount of DA at all with Move and Attack. However, if you wanted to read Move and Attack another way, it could imply you have to adjust your final skill to 9 or less which frankly sounds insane but I could see it and that would preclude DA.

But the way MaA is worded very much sounds like the 9 comes absolutely last. I guess if you wanted an actual order; Most penalties (including -4 from MaA) -> DA -> cap of 9. That's how I interpret it. From a game perspective it makes sense to me, from a realism perspective it still makes sense to me.

Mind, I'm kind of more confused now about the cap. Is it really easier to run and throw a hatchet than to hit something with it? At higher skill levels I don't get any better in melee but it becomes much easier to throw it?

[Plane]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

'With' is incredibly important. You aren't decreasing skill below 10 with DA, you're doing it with something else that doesn't care what other penalties you took (that and MaA technically used 'adjusted' instead of 'effective').

..

Martial Arts disagrees with me. My guess is this might be the intent, but reading Basic only I still stand by MaA allowing DA, but introducing Martial Arts rules into the game takes the option away.

MA did change how some Basic stuff worked, same with Magic altering some stuff in basic set (for example: giving Mages the ability to sense changes in mana level, but removing their ability to sense non-permanent objects per Detect Magic rewrite)

Originally Posted by Rupert

If you can reduce the hit chance with DA, and then drop it below 10 with further penalties, that means you can cheat caps by altering the order you ally penalties, and that seems counter to a sensible reading of the rules.

You can already 'cheat caps' by applying OTHER penalties before the 9 cap though, so why not this one?

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Plane

You can already 'cheat caps' by applying OTHER penalties before the 9 cap though, so why not this one?

Because the other penalties don't say "but you can't do this if you end up under X". Deceptive Attack says that you can't go under 10. A Move and Attack forces you down to 9. Therefore, you can't do an DA during a non-Slam MaA. Martial Arts didn't introduce this, it clarified it.

[Anaraxes]

The debate seems to center around the order in which modifiers are applied compared to the cap -- modify base skill down, then reduce it to 9 as the last step, or reduce skill to 9, then apply modifiers?

Martial Arts clarifies the order (modifiers first, then cap), and also notes a number of options aren't allowed in combination with Move and Attack.

Originally Posted by MA107

Most melee attack options (e.g., hit location) are compatible with Move and Attack. Assess penalties for these before applying the effective skill limit of 9. Rapid Strike and Combinations aren’t allowed, however. Neither is Deceptive Attack, unless you’re making an attack that removes the skill cap (such as a slam or a cinematic technique like Flying Jump Kick), as it requires a final effective skill of at least 10. Certain uses of extra effort in combat are also forbidden, including Flurry of Blows, Mighty Blows, and Giant Step.