Telekinesis without Concentrate

[RedMattis]

I've got a player who wants to play a Psionic Martial artist who can TK-punch/kick people with Karate (etc.). Probably they also want to TK-grapple and throw people around. I figure we want to have the character be able to make two attacks.

Currently what I've got written up as advantages is:

Extra Attack (One Skill only (Karate))
Telekinesis

The issue I see is that Telekinesis requires a concentrate action, and then lets you take _one_ regular action (Ready, or Attack, or ...). This would presumably prevent the Extra Attack from working. It would also stop the character from F.ex. punching a guy and then TK-kicking another.

Compartmentalized Mind would work, but aside of being much more expensive than Extra Attack that one also lets you do a bunch of stuff we're not looking for. F.ex. All out Defending and using the extra mental action to TK-punch someone. Running away and punching someone behind you (given that you can see them). Etc.

[Varyon]

If I'm understanding correctly, you want the character to be able to use Telekinesis on its own or in conjunction with some flavor of attack maneuver (Attack, All Out Attack, Defensive Attack, and perhaps Feint). While you could probably make Compartmentalized Mind more-or-less do what you need with sufficient Limitations, I think what you really need is an Enhancement that turns the use of Telekinesis into an attack. That's not a huge shift, really - I'd be tempted to just make it +20%. Once that's done, you can use Extra Attack (as in your build) to be able to use it in conjunction with normal attacks, and you could also use Rapid Strike with it (and mix-and-match with normal attacks).

[Donny Brook]

Remember to take Limitations on the TK as well if all it is good for is combat.

[Anaraxes]

If the character can't use the TK for other purposes, just buy combat enhancements like Extra Attack or Striking ST and say that they're the TK-assisted strikes. You don't have to buy Telekinesis to have TK-assisted abilities. Power source is just flavor text. Add a Power Modifier to those abilities if that's appropriate for a teke in your game, so that (say) the extras disappear when fighting in an anti-psi field.

If you do want to use TK outside of combat, then consider buying those combat abilities as AAs with TK. You can't use the TK in combat since you can't concentrate, and the Extra Attack isn't very useful outside of combat anyway. And it's a lot simpler than trying to come up with half a dozen modifiers that turn Telekinesis into something exactly like Striking ST that assists strikes, "only it's TK".

If you want to eliminate the Concentrate requirement, you could use Compartmentalized Mind, perhaps limited to "TK Only" and "Combat Only" if you want to note that CM can't be used on other tasks (as you mention) That will also reduce its cost compared to Extra Attack. Alternatively, take enough levels of Reduced Time to turn the TK into a free action. (One level at +20% if it's already a 1-second activation. But note that the RT text specifically forbids using it on attack powers, so you'd be making an exception in this case if that seems justified to you.)

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

If the character can't use the TK for other purposes, just buy combat enhancements like Extra Attack or Striking ST and say that they're the TK-assisted strikes. You don't have to buy Telekinesis to have TK-assisted abilities. Power source is just flavor text. Add a Power Modifier to those abilities if that's appropriate for a teke in your game, so that (say) the extras disappear when fighting in an anti-psi field.

If you do want to use TK outside of combat, then consider buying those combat abilities as AAs with TK. You can't use the TK in combat since you can't concentrate, and the Extra Attack isn't very useful outside of combat anyway. And it's a lot simpler than trying to come up with half a dozen modifiers that turn Telekinesis into something exactly like Striking ST that assists strikes, "only it's TK".

If you want to eliminate the Concentrate requirement, you could use Compartmentalized Mind, perhaps limited to "TK Only" and "Combat Only" if you want to note that CM can't be used on other tasks (as you mention) That will also reduce its cost compared to Extra Attack. Alternatively, take enough levels of Reduced Time to turn the TK into a free action. (One level at +20% if it's already a 1-second activation. But note that the RT text specifically forbids using it on attack powers, so you'd be making an exception in this case if that seems justified to you.)

We're talking about TK-punching, grappling enemies 10 meters away and other typical telekinesis stuff.

I could definitely see getting a bunch of Alternate Abilities to the TK, though since we're making 250-point characters and not super-heroes the character doesn't have a ton of points to throw around.

[Plane]

One thing I haven't seen addressed is whether you can use Reduced Time to do a "free action" to initiate TK instead of a Concentrate maneuver.

I believe one reason that wouldn't be legal is that TK is more than just "concentrate to initiate" (as with a malediciton) but is additionally "concentrate to maintain" (as with "requires concentrate" limitation in PU8) so you would first need the "Independent" enhancement before that kind of option could possibly be on the radar.

Also even with Independent I believe you also need to have a duration to work with, so TK w/ Independent would also need to buy "Persistent" (10 second base) possibly modified with either Reduced Duraiton or Extended Duration to tailor as-needed.

In such a situation I would expect each Concentrate maneuver to give you that duration's worth of autonomous ability, and perhaps if Reduced Time reduced that Concentrate to zero it could be done a free action?

I think there's something limiting "free action" stuff to one free action at the start of each turn though? Or at least some some stuff... Reduced Time doesn't exactly mention that but it would stretch imagination to have someone just do unlimited free actions per turn.

Like for example if you had 'reduced time' on Healing w/ Ranged +40%, you probably couldn't just instantly heal hundreds of different people within range. They have enhancements like AE to allow stuff like that.

Originally Posted by RedMattis

Currently what I've got written up as advantages is:

Extra Attack (One Skill only (Karate))
Telekinesis

The issue I see is that Telekinesis requires a concentrate action, and then lets you take _one_ regular action (Ready, or Attack, or ...). This would presumably prevent the Extra Attack from working.

Psionic Powers 17 suggests in cinematic campaigns it could be acceptable to allow Reduced Time on TK for the purposes of allowing "Ready" maneuvers with your TK to be free actions, which would allow stuff like freely picking something up so you can immediately use an Attack to throw it.

Based on that it doesn't seem too off-base to also allow you to use Extra Attack to get 2 attacks per Attack maneuver you choose to do with your TK after spending the usual Concentrate, though perhaps in that case it should ONLY work with the TK and not be usable normally?

Originally Posted by RedMattis

It would also stop the character from F.ex. punching a guy and then TK-kicking another.

Actually what I think stops that is that TK is only ever described as being hands, not feet, so you just can't do kicks because of that.

If you want to do a double-punch I think your TK option might just take AOA(double) though, or just use a DWA or Rapid Strike

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Plane

I think there's something limiting "free action" stuff to one free action at the start of each turn though?

Powers 154 has a line limiting activation/deactivation of switchable abilities that are activated with a free action to occurring at the start of your turn -- though that's a statement about each action, not a total, and it's also pretty specific about the subset of free actions to which it applies. (It's perhaps also worth noting that you can only use free actions during your turn. If you want something to activate on someone else's turn, like to pop up a defense, then it needs Reflexive or the Power Dodge/Block rules.)

There are counter-examples to free actions occurring only at the start of turns. For example, Magic p14 explicitly allows dissipating a held spell at any time during your turn, not just at the beginning.

The big picture is more like once per turn per ability (as opposed to per character). You can, for instance, drop an item as a free action, dropping one from each hand. You can stand up from a crouch as a free action. You can drop two things while standing up from a crouch. You can drop two things while standing up from a crouch and shouting "Cease fire! They're friendlies!". That's four free actions in one turn. Releasing a grenade's arming handle after the pin has been pulled is a free action. So might as well make those weapons grenades, and release the arming handles along with dropping them. Hey, six free actions in one turn, which you'll no doubt shortly regret.

There are a few cases (e.g., the Reach Mastery Perk) which explicitly limit their use to once per turn. This wouldn't be necessary if there were a global rule that you got only one free action of any sort, total, per turn.

You can't, however, flicker an instant ability on and off dozens of times per second just because that ability doesn't state a limit. For example, Spines says you get to hit anyone you're in Close Combat with as a free action. That's not limited to affecting just one enemy thanks to some "only one free action per turn" rule -- but it's also not license to attack the same target multiple times, "because free actions are instantaneous and there's no limit". Common sense is a guide. Most free actions are just once per turn.

Supers has a rule (a Rapid Fire Enhancement for Warp, p29) that lets you use it multiple times per activation. Martial Arts has rules (p103) for multiple Fast-Draws in one turn, which have a cumulative penalty, and also (like Parry) counts independently per hand (again suggesting that independent actions, like each hand, can occur in the same turn). Either of these might make good models for building an ability that you'd like to activate multiple times in one turn, even when activation is a free action.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

you can only use free actions during your turn. If you want something to activate on someone else's turn, like to pop up a defense, then it needs Reflexive or the Power Dodge/Block rules.

Pretty sure so long as it's a free action (which 'reduced time' would get you to) that you could use it as a power-dodge during someone else's turn to avoid an attack.

Reflexive seems more like it also works by itself against surprise attacks you're not aware of, whereas merely 'free action' would require awareness?

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

There are counter-examples to free actions occurring only at the start of turns. For example, Magic p14 explicitly allows dissipating a held spell at any time during your turn, not just at the beginning.

I'm trying to think of some situations where that could be useful...

It seems weird you're guaranteed to automatically do it in time though, I like the idea of rolling power dodge to see if you do it fast enough to respond before an attack lands.

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

The big picture is more like once per turn per ability (as opposed to per character).

This actually reminds me of some Kromm errata in 2019 where it's mentioned that aura can only flash once per target per second and to get extra flashes you'd need to take Rapid Fire.

Originally Posted by Kromm

buy Rapid Fire and say the Aura can affect each person up to RoF times. For instance, Aura (+80%) + Melee Attack (-30%) + Rapid Fire, RoF 3 (+50%) would cost +100% and be able to affect a given enemy up to three times (say, once for you punching him and twice when he punches you twice).

But yeah being per-ability doesn't exactly tell us how to design cross-ability compromising except in the care of Alternative Abilities perhaps?

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

You can, for instance, drop an item as a free action, dropping one from each hand. You can stand up from a crouch as a free action. You can drop two things while standing up from a crouch. You can drop two things while standing up from a crouch and shouting "Cease fire! They're friendlies!". That's four free actions in one turn.

If we only had rolls involved perhaps we might at least penalize them with that cumulative "doing two things at once" -2, but a lot of free actions like these don't involve rolls.

Maybe if we assigned rolls but made them nearly-always-successful +10s for simplicity that could only ever fail if someone has horrible cumulative penalties.

IQ 10 rolling against IQ 20 to use a language for example, would only increase risk of failure doing 3+ other things.

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

There are a few cases (e.g., the Reach Mastery Perk) which explicitly limit their use to once per turn. This wouldn't be necessary if there were a global rule that you got only one free action of any sort, total, per turn.

Wouldn't a "necessity of reminder implies otherwise without" approach also then imply that free actions per-ability are also uncapped?

If there's a baseline "a free action ability can only be used once per turn" then you wouldn't need the reminder either.

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

You can't, however, flicker an instant ability on and off dozens of times per second just because that ability doesn't state a limit. For example, Spines says you get to hit anyone you're in Close Combat with as a free action. That's not limited to affecting just one enemy thanks to some "only one free action per turn" rule -- but it's also not license to attack the same target multiple times, "because free actions are instantaneous and there's no limit". Common sense is a guide. Most free actions are just once per turn.

B88's "a DX-4 roll to hit each foe in close combat with you once per turn, as a free action" explicitly puts in such a limit, which sort of implies if you didn't have that "once per turn" in there that you could make as many "free action DX roll to hits" as you'd like.

I'm kinda wondering if we got an explicit explanation of how to game Spines...

Like my assumption would be that it's the spine char's option which foes to target, and those he opts to target then each have a separate DX roll to hit them...

But on second thought couldn't you also read that as a single DX roll which targets every single char sharing a hex with you? So the free action might be an "all or nothing" sort of "spine spin" ?

"at +2 against foes who attacked you from behind" could probably be taken as evidence that it's separate rolls, especially since rolls could be affected by other modifiers like size.

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Supers has a rule (a Rapid Fire Enhancement for Warp, p29) that lets you use it multiple times per activation.

Yeah I'm thinking that might've be part of Kromm's inspiration for Rapid-Fire auras?

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Martial Arts has rules (p103) for multiple Fast-Draws in one turn, which have a cumulative penalty, and also (like Parry) counts independently per hand (again suggesting that independent actions, like each hand, can occur in the same turn). Either of these might make good models for building an ability that you'd like to activate multiple times in one turn, even when activation is a free action.

Yeah the Multiple Fast Draw rules I think build at the -2 for 2 things at once cumulation so it's great so long as we have a die roll to affect.

Do any potentially problematic cases where there aren't such rolls to penalize come to mind? Perhapse if GMs required successful perception rolls to use abilities against targets (you need to perceive something to affect it) and penalized cumulative perceptions then that'd work?

One problem I can see with cumulative perception penalties is an issue where a foe might throw a bunch of weak distractions (a bunch of 1 HP rats lets say) to exhaust your penalties.

If this was just rats exhausting your parries/dodges you could just opt not to waste active defenses against weak foes, but I don't think that'd work since you actually need to perceive something as weak first before knowing they're worth ignoring.

Size Modifier might help though since presumably if you fail your check (don't even notice a tiny rat) then you shouldn't be penalized for paying attention to it, it just became part of the background, so it would be high-SM targets which are more likely to incur penalties.

I could also see something like you could RP "I am opting to ignore anything under SM-4 because it probably doesn't matter" and just auto-fail perception checks against small targets so that they don't penalize you. This way a high-Perception char (who could easily notice small things, and thus incur penalties) would have a way out of getting brute-forced by a rat army ruining his perception against a followup foe.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Plane

If we only had rolls involved perhaps we might at least penalize them with that cumulative "doing two things at once" -2, but a lot of free actions like these don't involve rolls.

Lots of free actions don't need rolls. Dropping something you hold in your hand isn't a DX check. You just do it. And many actions don't interfere with each other in any meaningful way, especially for easy stuff. Opening your left hand to drop something doesn't impede your ability to open your right hand as well. Even in MA, that rule is specifically for Fast-Drawing multiple items with each hand, and they count individually (which is a fairly cinematic thing to do, if not as cinematic as the Maneuver to follow where you fling double handfuls of those shuriken at the array of mooks before you and kill them all. Or not.)

Wouldn't a "necessity of reminder implies otherwise without" approach also then imply that free actions per-ability are also uncapped?

I offer that quote just as extra evidence that there's no general rule about only having one free action per turn. It'd be going too far to try and infer the converse as some sort of rule.

GURPS rules aren't written with the approach of modern D&D or Pathfinder, where the rules are expected to be literally interpreted even where those interpretations don't make sense*. The most important phrase in my response was "common sense", not any of the rules quotes.

--
*My favorite example is a Sage Advice column answer about the effects of attack cantrips on objects. You see, there are a few words used as technical terms in D&D5e to distinguish "creatures" from inanimate "objects" from whatever other categories were important. This helps classify some spell effects. But they were a little careless about the wording for the cantrip spells, most of which just say something like "target a creature". So you wind up with a situation where Fire Bolt (wizard) can harm a wooden door, but Produce Flame (druid) and Sacred Flame (cleric) cannot, because only Fire Bolt happens to say "creature or object" while the other two say only "creature". It's obviously an editorial oversight just to throw on the errata list, but WotC stuck to their guns (or ego) when someone submitted it and insisted that literal interpretation was intended and correct. Well, it's certainly correct as a literal interpretation of what got printed, but does make the universe a curious place when the class of the person applying fire to your campfire determines whether or not the fire actually gets lit.

All games need Rule Zero, even those that do the best job at precision technical writing. I wouldn't take that as an excuse not to even try to make the rules tight. But at least GURPS acknowledges the possibility of mistakes and doesn't intentionally promote that culture of literal interpretation to empower endless rules lawyering arguments over subtle twists of interpretation.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Lots of free actions don't need rolls. Dropping something you hold in your hand isn't a DX check. You just do it.

Yeah I know, I'm just thinking with a 'rolls for everything' approach you could have it super-easy (like at +15) and on a failure perhaps like a quick-draw you end up spending a ready maneuver opening your hand instead of doing it free?

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

And many actions don't interfere with each other in any meaningful way, especially for easy stuff. Opening your left hand to drop something doesn't impede your ability to open your right hand as well.

Die rolls might give results like "I instinctively clutched that thing and couldn't collect my thoughts enough to drop it" maybe?