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Old 05-13-2017, 04:40 PM   #81
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: My Honest Opinion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Point values are not a perfect guide to how problematic a disadvantage is in a given campaign. In a gritty WWII special operations campaign, Pacifism (Reluctant Killer), or indeed, any other pacifism, is a much greater handicap than their point-values suggest. In a campaign where the PCs are supposed to be freelance criminals and covert operatives in the style of Ronin, playing multiple sides against each other, Easy to Ready and Truthfulness are much more crippling than their point value would indicate. And in a campaign where the PCs are meant to be undercover narcotics officers, several Disadvantages, such as Honesty or Intolerance (Drug Dealers), would be so crippling as to make the character unsuitable for the campaign.

And in a campaign where the PCs are meant to be an extrajudicial death squad handling problems that the mundane law enforcement authorities of the world neither know about nor are equipped to handle, Honesty is archtypical of a Disadvantage that makes a character unsuited for the very concept of the campaign. Taking Honesty for an outlaw whose very career is against the law is like taking Lame (Sessile) for a runner.
There are variations. But the default assumption is that PCs are adventurers of some sort, but not necessarily Ronin-style crooks. And so a calibration of disads to an adventury campaign should be considered. Are you saying that in the majority of typical campaigns, the amount of trouble you describe is a fair amount of trouble for 10 points?

And notice that Kromm, Hackard and/or participated in the making of MH, Action, Mysteries (where That Darn Kid can have Honesty), and probably other books with Honest adventurers, then that seems to indicate that the authors and editors of GURPS don't interpret Honesty the way you do.
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Old 05-13-2017, 05:07 PM   #82
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Default Re: My Honest Opinion

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
There are variations. But the default assumption is that PCs are adventurers of some sort, but not necessarily Ronin-style crooks. And so a calibration of disads to an adventury campaign should be considered. Are you saying that in the majority of typical campaigns, the amount of trouble you describe is a fair amount of trouble for 10 points?
It's -20 points of Disadvantage, because Honesty comes bundled with a 10 point Reputation. And it's worse than some -20 points, better than others.

Honesty is fairly comparable to Reprogrammable, in being a -10 Disadvantage that will generally make a character unsuitable as a protagonist in an adventure. Of course, as Honesty comes bundled with a 10 point Advantage, it's even worse than Reprogrammable. It's about as bad as Crippling Shyness or Hoplophobia for an adventurer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
And notice that Kromm, Hackard and/or participated in the making of MH, Action, Mysteries (where That Darn Kid can have Honesty), and probably other books with Honest adventurers, then that seems to indicate that the authors and editors of GURPS don't interpret Honesty the way you do.
I don't really know how much scrutiny goes into the templates in GURPS supplements, but I doubt very much that the editors have the leisure to make sample characters or go through all the implications of how playable the characters would be. That's probably a job for the author. The editors are more likely to check if the character creation rules are followed in the templates and that there aren't errors or layout problems.

That being said, as far as I can tell, the text of GURPS Honesty is substantially unchanged from its first incarnation. The intention may have been for the Disadvantage to represent something that an English-speaker might call 'honesty', but whoever wrote it did not succeed at defining any such thing. Going by the text of the Disadvantage, it is not technically unplayable, nor is it any more severe for its point value than some other Disadvantages, but it does result in characters that are unlikely to be interesting in the role of a footloose adventuring hero or likable in any sense.

I don't really think we need Honesty as a Disadvantage in future editions, but I suppose it could be re-written as an example of Code of Honour combined with a positive Reputation (and if considered necessary, a Delusion about the honesty of others). And if we do, we should probably get rid of the requirement to 'do their best' to get everyone else to follow the law and replace it with a requirement to get everyone else to behave honestly, i.e. not to require the character to attempt to enforce the local law whatever it may happen to be, but rather to act consistently according to his own conception of what honest behaviour is.
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Old 05-13-2017, 05:45 PM   #83
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Default Re: My Honest Opinion

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
It's a 20 point Disadvantage that comes bundled with a 10 point Reputation. As such, the Disadvantage part is more severe than Pacifism: Cannot Kill or Vow (Never Use Weapons).
I have my doubts about the pricing of the Reputation and I wouldn't be inclined to call it bundled. It exists in potential, but if you don't stay alive and in one place long enough (and what is long enough? Certainly more than days or weeks and probably more than months or even a year. Definitely years, I would think.) then you don't get that Reputation.

As for the pricing, the area it applies to is local. It might extend to all of Los Angeles in Zorro's time, but it probably doesn't extend much beyond a neighbourhood, e.g. Watts or Beverly Hills, today. I'd rate that as a small class of people in the campaign worth x 1/3. With the +3 bonus being worth 15 points, that reduces it to a 5 point Reputation, and that's assuming that you're recognized all the time. Going back to the how long is long enough question, I'd estimate that the reputation is occasional (and worth 2 points) between 2 years and 10 years in the same area, sometimes (and worth 3 points) between 10 and 20 years, and only all the time (and worth the full 5 points) if you've lived there 20 years or more.

In short, Honesty is a -10* point disadvantage, period.

* if you either don't use self-control rolls nor don't have a self-control roll different from 12-.
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Old 05-14-2017, 02:16 AM   #84
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: My Honest Opinion

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
It's -20 points of Disadvantage, because Honesty comes bundled with a 10 point Reputation. And it's worse than some -20 points, better than others.

Honesty is fairly comparable to Reprogrammable, in being a -10 Disadvantage that will generally make a character unsuitable as a protagonist in an adventure. Of course, as Honesty comes bundled with a 10 point Advantage, it's even worse than Reprogrammable. It's about as bad as Crippling Shyness or Hoplophobia for an adventurer.


I don't really know how much scrutiny goes into the templates in GURPS supplements, but I doubt very much that the editors have the leisure to make sample characters or go through all the implications of how playable the characters would be. That's probably a job for the author. The editors are more likely to check if the character creation rules are followed in the templates and that there aren't errors or layout problems.

That being said, as far as I can tell, the text of GURPS Honesty is substantially unchanged from its first incarnation. The intention may have been for the Disadvantage to represent something that an English-speaker might call 'honesty', but whoever wrote it did not succeed at defining any such thing. Going by the text of the Disadvantage, it is not technically unplayable, nor is it any more severe for its point value than some other Disadvantages, but it does result in characters that are unlikely to be interesting in the role of a footloose adventuring hero or likable in any sense.

I don't really think we need Honesty as a Disadvantage in future editions, but I suppose it could be re-written as an example of Code of Honour combined with a positive Reputation (and if considered necessary, a Delusion about the honesty of others). And if we do, we should probably get rid of the requirement to 'do their best' to get everyone else to follow the law and replace it with a requirement to get everyone else to behave honestly, i.e. not to require the character to attempt to enforce the local law whatever it may happen to be, but rather to act consistently according to his own conception of what honest behaviour is.
No way is a reputation that only works where you live, after a while, when people realize that you're that Honest person, and does not apply to combat reactions, is worth [10]. It's about the right place for Trivial Reputation [1] at most. Maaaybe another [1] for even narrower conversion from a +1 to a +3.

Notice that when asked about the law-abiding only part of Honesty, Kromm's answer is:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
I'd say that "Always behave in a law-abiding fashion . . . but assume the worst about others" is a reasonable -5-point Code of Honor.
Not something close to [-15] (due to being bundled with a [-5] delusion).
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