Adaptations: Not what I was thinking

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Inky

It's true that you can't usually infer from a fantasy novel anything like a complete system of how the magic is supposed to work. But you can sometimes tell that one of GURPS's magic systems would fit what happens in the book much more accurately than another. For instance, obviously for a game based on a book where improvising spells is common the Ritual Magic variants will make more sense than the standard magic system. And I've seen various things suggested for Middle Earth games - some people suggest standard magic, some ritual magic, some suggest having some races use one and some the other, and some people suggest casting spells using music or art skills.

Yes, and as it happens, page 34 has half a page taken up by discussing how to analyze this, with suggested applications for Path and Book magic, mana-based magic, symbol magic, magical objects and substances, and "magic as powers."

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Kage2020

And I have many of those, too, being someone from the 3e days. They can, indeed, be insightful when you reverse engineer it.

I wasn't really talking about them, though.

I'll just chalk it up to my own expectations, rate the product appropriately, and move on.

Not every GURPS book works for everyone.


Not quite, but perhaps that was a little bit too niche and "out of the blue", as it were.

Imho, in order to adapt something, the themes aborded are the most important. I am (or was, but I'll continue it... Someday) adapting Wraith the Oblivion, and the important thing is not to try to match every single bit point to point, but rather to get the idea behind the concept; so, are you trying to play the vampires of Anne Rice, or Dracula from Bram Stoker? So get the ideas behing those (ok, burns under the Sunlight, so that's the disadvantage... Which just escaped my mind right now, fantastic, I love my memory). Want to adapt D&D? So get the core ideas of it. Dont try to mimic D&D by trying to transform 1 circle spells into abilities or to use the Gurps spell system. D&D has Mages, right? Ok, that's Magery. Simple. Now, you can even "sweeten" things by introducing some synthatic magic rather than spell lists - RPM, Ver Noun, Realm, Incantation... All are good fits. Do you wanna keep the same "niche system" of D&D? Use Templates, restrict the magic for mages - for example, remove healing effects and effects to repel Undead, leaving those for Clerics and Paladins (or "Priests" and "Holy Knights" whatever name you wanna give it).

Dont try to take for example the "Disarm Traps - 50%" for a thieve and try to turn into into an advantage to disarm traps with a 10 skill (50% chance). Instead, just pick the idea of "Thieves" as a "class" of jack-of-all-trades with many useful skills related to pickpicket, streetwise, stealth skills, fast talk etc etc - so, skills and abilities that would be useful for a spy-thief-assassin, mix in a healthy dose of DX, HT, combat skills and voilá, a Gurps thief. Dont try to convert each single trait of D&D to Gurps, it will look awfull and quite frankly, Gurps is a far better system with far more options to create unique chars than D&D anyway. You can have an awesome Gurps Mage or Cleric or Shaman or Druid or whatever without trying to convert all the circle 1 to 9 mage spells or circles 1 to 7 cleric spells into gurps advantages or spell lists. The same holds true for any other source of adaptation.

So I dont know what better counsel it could be given rather than this or what the book already covers; maybe you would like to know what's the "official" sheet of Darth Vader or Legolas or the D&D lich God Vecna, but honestly that imo will only restrict you rather than help - because now, if you had envisioned a Star Wars were "The Force" was a bunch of voodo stuff freely done, but now Darth Vader's "official sheet" has him with ER and all Force Abilities with "costs ER", you are now stuck with Force Abilities needing an energy pool to work. Again, imho, it's best to just give insight on how to keep realism under fantastic assumptions such as The Force than giving full Sheets for Luke, Vader and Palpatine.

And, if you wanna make a sheet for Vader, any Gurps player familiar with the system can do it in 15 minutes

[Inky]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Yes, and as it happens, page 34 has half a page taken up by discussing how to analyze this, with suggested applications for Path and Book magic, mana-based magic, symbol magic, magical objects and substances, and "magic as powers."

Fair. Sounds useful. I don't have GURPS Adaptations, I was just throwing that in.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Inky

It's true that you can't usually infer from a fantasy novel anything like a complete system of how the magic is supposed to work. But you can sometimes tell that one of GURPS's magic systems would fit what happens in the book much more accurately than another. For instance, obviously for a game based on a book where improvising spells is common the Ritual Magic variants will make more sense than the standard magic system. And I've seen various things suggested for Middle Earth games - some people suggest standard magic, some ritual magic, some suggest having some races use one and some the other, and some people suggest casting spells using music or art skills.

Magic on Middle Earth is... Complicated. I guess that "Enchantment throught deeds" works better for magic items, like the rings of Power, the Palantir or the Silmarils. For the elves and the Maiar (such as the 5 mages), it's either abilities as magic or even some cosmic level of Serendipity. I wouldnt use spell lists or even synthatic magic thou

[Kage2020]

Originally Posted by Inky

It's true that you can't usually infer from a fantasy novel anything like a complete system of how the magic is supposed to work.

Why not?

As I'm re-reading them at the moment, consider Lackey's Valdemar novels. Nto only to I find them hugely inspirational, but there's enough information in there that you can begin to create a magic system from.

Sure, as you say you can make a guestimate as to what magic system variant would be the best, but isn't that interesting data?

You don't have to agree with something to get value from the example. The only issue is not even considering the benefit of the example and opening yourself up to other opportunities.

Originally Posted by whswhs

Yes, and as it happens, page 34 has half a page taken up by discussing how to analyze this, with suggested applications for Path and Book magic, mana-based magic, symbol magic, magical objects and substances, and "magic as powers."

Ironically, perhaps, this treatment was too generic. It pointed to other recources and basically said "Have at it!".

My "part 2" suggestion is rather than deflecting these to other resources, you address these. I say this only because I don't need a literary breakdown. I've been there and done that over many years. On the other hand, I do appreciate the insight of why people make decisions on how to do things in GURPS. Or, basically, Adaptations Pt2.

Originally Posted by KarlKost

Imho, in order to adapt something, the themes aborded are the most important...

With respect, this is standard information that anyone that turns from a dedicated system to a generic system has in their hearts--more so if they've been doing it for a while.

Put another way, it's often represented as "Don't convert mechanics."

I would respectfully ask that you don't conflate my disappointment in Adaptations as being some form of misunderstanding. While I'm in no way an expert on the system, I do delve into it as I have for the past 20 years (or more). Sure, I get disenchanted or am intersted in other generic systems, so I explore those, too.

If flaw that I have--and a very obvious one--it's because I'm always hedging.

[quote=KarlKost]Dont try to take for example the "Disarm Traps - 50%" for a thieve and try to turn into into an advantage to disarm traps with a 10 skill (50% chance). [/upte]
This is converting mechanics. The only reason that would want to do this is if the mechanics were actually intertwined with core setting premises.

For example? The notion of "spell matrices" are a mechanical thing in the Earthdawn that are tied directly into the setting (for obvious reasons).

Originally Posted by KarlKost

So I dont know what better counsel it could be given rather than this or what the book already covers...

Please recall that I have read the book and you have claimed not to. I'm not sayng that you're points are invalid, but I guess I'm tryng to get to the grips of why the book disappointed me even if it had good information.

FWIW, and as an example of how it's possible to disagree and yet appreciate a work, I'm not a fan of how whswhs handled Social Engineering and the premise of reference societies. Yet that's a useful book.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Kage2020

Why not?

As I'm re-reading them at the moment, consider Lackey's Valdemar novels. Nto only to I find them hugely inspirational, but there's enough information in there that you can begin to create a magic system from.

Valdemar would be a cool adaptation. The Heralds pretty much get away with Telepathy. For most magic, RPM probably the best fit though the Path thing would need reworking. Maybe dig up my books and see how I would handle it for a fan conversion.

[Stormcrow]

I get the impression that what you wanted from the book was "Works X, Y, and Z have a feature W that turns into Rule A in GURPS." A complete survey of all of fiction and instructions on which rules GURPS uses to cover every element.

If that is the case, the book would have been impossibly large and restricted to The One True Way for each fictional trope.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Valdemar would be a cool adaptation. The Heralds pretty much get away with Telepathy. For most magic, RPM probably the best fit though the Path thing would need reworking. Maybe dig up my books and see how I would handle it for a fan conversion.

I'd be very dubious of RPM working right. Valdemaran Mages that I can think of have done very little preparation.

Standard Magic would actually work pretty well if you gave Masters the ability to cast Draw Power (at Magery 2) on Ley lines and Adepts to cast it on nodes at Magery 3.

If you don't do that it's off to Magic-as-Powers and prepare to spend a lot of cp.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

I get the impression that what you wanted from the book was "Works X, Y, and Z have a feature W that turns into Rule A in GURPS." A complete survey of all of fiction and instructions on which rules GURPS uses to cover every element.

If that is the case, the book would have been impossibly large and restricted to The One True Way for each fictional trope.

That's what I get too. Or at least, he wanted some examples of it. But that would've been an impossible expectation

[Kage2020]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

I get the impression that what you wanted from the book was "Works X, Y, and Z have a feature W that turns into Rule A in GURPS." A complete survey of all of fiction and instructions on which rules GURPS uses to cover every element.

Incorrect and almost hyperbolically so.

Originally Posted by Fred Bracklin

I'd be very dubious of RPM working right. Valdemaran Mages that I can think of have done very little preparation.

Standard Magic would actually work pretty well if you gave Masters the ability to cast Draw Power (at Magery 2) on Ley lines and Adepts to cast it on nodes at Magery 3.

If you don't do that it's off to Magic-as-Powers and prepare to spend a lot of cp.

You know you're on a GURPS forum when an off-the-cuff reference generates debate. ;)

(I shudder at the idea of using the standard GURPS skill-based magic whenever anyone mentions it.)

Originally Posted by KarlKost

That's what I get too. Or at least, he wanted some examples of it. But that would've been an impossible expectation

And it is not what I want nor what I said. BUT having more examples, and some perhaps even some harder "numbers filed off" examples, would have been far more useful and perhaps more appealing to a wider audience.

I just didn't need some "academic" short treatise on creative writing or literary critique. That wasn't what I was expecting--hence the title of the thread.

Again, I'm not saying that it's bad, just not my cup of tea. (And, as with books that you're not fond of, there is the odd useful thing in there.) It's just a little too niche for me (beginning GMs cross-section with beginning GURPS GM).

Lesson learned.