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Old 10-06-2015, 05:30 AM   #1
scc
 
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Default [Basic/MA] Wierd Dual Wielding Combat Question

OK, in a game of running at the moment one of the characters has ended up using a Katana as her primary melee weapon with a combat fan as back up. Now I'm pretty sure that attacks using martial arts skills don't suffer from off-hand attack penalties or dual weapon penalties. So this means that the character would take a -4 to-hit with the Katana but no penalties for the combat fan, right?
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Old 10-06-2015, 06:50 AM   #2
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Default Re: [Basic/MA]Wierd Dual Wielding Combat Question

Looks like you're correct. MA p.124 under "harsh realism for unarmed fighters" says that Karate has no off hand penalties in Basic. Combat Fan uses Karate skill**. So unless you're using harsh realism rules (and I suspect harsh realism jars a little against a campaign in which someone is dual wielding katana and fan...) you're ok for a no penalty parry with the Fan.

And yes, the Katana suffers -4 if the character is using dual weapon attack. I don't think it suffers -4 if the character just attacks with the katana.

One problem I suggest they may face is to do with Reach. The Fan is reach C and the Katana is reach 1. Makes dual attack tricky.


***or does it? Not 100% sure on that. If not, then -4 to attack.

Last edited by Vynticator; 10-06-2015 at 08:06 AM. Reason: Query added re. combat fan skill root.
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Old 10-06-2015, 06:53 AM   #3
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Default Re: [Basic/MA]Wierd Dual Wielding Combat Question

Both attacks in a DWA default to -4, unless you buy it up. The Reach issue makes things more complicated, but can be managed by a Katana Attack / Step Into CC / Fan Attack order of actions.
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Old 10-06-2015, 07:09 AM   #4
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Default Re: [Basic/MA]Wierd Dual Wielding Combat Question

When striking with a weapon in each hand you normally take -4 to hit for making two attacks and -4 to hit with your off hand.
Attacking with an unarmed skills such as Karate negates the penalty for striking with your off hand, but not the penalty for making two attacks.
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Old 10-06-2015, 07:44 AM   #5
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Default Re: [Basic/MA] Wierd Dual Wielding Combat Question

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Originally Posted by scc View Post
Now I'm pretty sure that attacks using martial arts skills don't suffer from off-hand attack penalties or dual weapon penalties.
Mind pointing out where you saw this?!

Because by RAW afaik you only get no penalty for off-hand fighting when Unarmed or fighting with Natural weapons like Claws, Teeth and/or Strikers (using MA expanded rules).

The bonus you get with a Combat Fan using Karate is damage, according the table at MA p. 226.

Also, there's nothing relative for Dual-Weapon Fighting...so afaik you'd still get -4 for Off-hand and another -4 for DWA, for example, totalling a -8 if using DWA.
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Old 10-06-2015, 08:33 AM   #6
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Default Re: [Basic/MA] Wierd Dual Wielding Combat Question

The Karate skill states "Roll against Karate to hit with a punch (at no -4 for the 'off' hand)." When using equipment of some sort, read the description carefully. If that gear is a glove (e.g., cestus, myrmex, or sap glove), or explicitly enhances punches (like brass knuckles or anything with the "Hilt punch" note), you're throwing punches and may ignore the off-hand penalty. Otherwise, the item deals a weapon blow – not a punch – and attacks and parries are considered armed. In effect, you can claim either the benefit of no off-hand penalty (because you're punching with Karate) or the benefit of no risk to your hand (because you're using a weapon, not your hand), but never both. The Karate damage bonus has nothing to do with where this line is drawn; that bonus applies "when you calculate damage with Karate attacks," which is simply any attack that rolls against Karate to hit.
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Old 10-06-2015, 08:53 AM   #7
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Default Re: [Basic/MA] Wierd Dual Wielding Combat Question

I've always been horribly confused about why unarmed striking skills receive competency-based damage modifiers, especially since this applies even when they are used to make an armed strike (Bladed Hands being the most common example that I encounter), but armed striking skills receive no such bonus (unless, of course, you're in Weapon Master territory).
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Old 10-06-2015, 09:12 AM   #8
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Default Re: [Basic/MA] Wierd Dual Wielding Combat Question

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I've always been horribly confused about why unarmed striking skills receive competency-based damage modifiers, especially since this applies even when they are used to make an armed strike (Bladed Hands being the most common example that I encounter), but armed striking skills receive no such bonus (unless, of course, you're in Weapon Master territory).
Tradition I suspect.

They got these early on, when it compensated for lousy damage some, to allow you to play an unarmed fighter that could actually hurt things, and never lost them when other rules that could have been used to compensate for lousy damage (Claws, Striker (Limbs), Exotic Hand Strike, I think they even predate brass knuckles and hard boots...) came along. Lots of people have suggested just dropping them, but there are always loud objections.
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Old 10-06-2015, 10:01 AM   #9
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Default Re: [Basic/MA] Wierd Dual Wielding Combat Question

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Landwalker View Post
I've always been horribly confused about why unarmed striking skills receive competency-based damage modifiers
Quote:
Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
Tradition I suspect.
Asked and answered. Given the current state of the art, I'd just as soon use the "Trained ST" approach of GURPS Martial Arts: Technical Grappling for all combat, and let things like Hard skills and Weapon Master alter the speed of the progression . . . maybe Karate would progress faster than Brawling and Weapon Master would shift weapons from the Slow progression to the Fast one. This would greatly increase the appeal of relative skill, as DX 18 and skill DX-1 would be significantly inferior to DX 10 and skill DX+7 because the first fighter has put in maybe a couple of weeks of training for every year the second one has, and thus has significantly less specialized muscle development and a more rudimentary grasp of efficiency.
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Old 10-06-2015, 10:58 AM   #10
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Default Re: [Basic/MA] Wierd Dual Wielding Combat Question

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Asked and answered. Given the current state of the art, I'd just as soon use the "Trained ST" approach of GURPS Martial Arts: Technical Grappling for all combat, and let things like Hard skills and Weapon Master alter the speed of the progression . . . maybe Karate would progress faster than Brawling and Weapon Master would shift weapons from the Slow progression to the Fast one. This would greatly increase the appeal of relative skill, as DX 18 and skill DX-1 would be significantly inferior to DX 10 and skill DX+7 because the first fighter has put in maybe a couple of weeks of training for every year the second one has, and thus has significantly less specialized muscle development and a more rudimentary grasp of efficiency.
Now that's a write up I'd love to see (and use).

If it's basically in Tech Grappling, you've given me a reason to finally read it!
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