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Old 09-14-2015, 06:58 AM   #1
Anders
 
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Default Building Immunity: Fire

Could you build an immunity to fire as Insubstantial (Flames only, -80%)?
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Old 09-14-2015, 07:49 AM   #2
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Default Re: Building Immunity: Fire

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Originally Posted by Anders View Post
Could you build an immunity to fire as Insubstantial (Flames only, -80%)?
I would not allow the build with just that limitation; you get rid of the biggest problem of Insubstantial (being unable to do much to the real world while being invulnerable) while retaining a big benefit out of it. I also strongly question the value of the limitation.

The "Invulnerability" build from powers requires
Affect Substantial, +100%; Can Carry Objects, Heavy, +100%; Partial Change, +100%; Reflexive, +40%; Unconscious Only, -20%; Uncontrollable, -10%

That gives a cost of 328. I don't like "Invulnerability" of any sort, but if I were allowing it I'd say "Invulnerable" is a new advantage worth 330 points, and you can apply the Limited Defense limitation from DR to it.
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Old 09-14-2015, 08:03 AM   #3
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Default Re: Building Immunity: Fire

If you drop most of the bonuses, you could get someone who can't get hurt by flame (still affected by heat; take Temperature Tolerance), but also can't stamp out a fire, or smother one with bare hands (a staple for some fire-immune folk). Also can't interpose themselves to block a flame jet headed at someone else. Blowing out a candle might work...

Last edited by Culture20; 09-14-2015 at 08:13 AM.
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Old 09-14-2015, 09:15 AM   #4
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Default Re: Building Immunity: Fire

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
I would not allow the build with just that limitation; you get rid of the biggest problem of Insubstantial (being unable to do much to the real world while being invulnerable) while retaining a big benefit out of it. I also strongly question the value of the limitation.

The "Invulnerability" build from powers requires
Affect Substantial, +100%; Can Carry Objects, Heavy, +100%; Partial Change, +100%; Reflexive, +40%; Unconscious Only, -20%; Uncontrollable, -10%

That gives a cost of 328. I don't like "Invulnerability" of any sort, but if I were allowing it I'd say "Invulnerable" is a new advantage worth 330 points, and you can apply the Limited Defense limitation from DR to it.
Is there a reason to take Reflexive rather than Always On?
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Old 09-14-2015, 10:58 AM   #5
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Default Re: Building Immunity: Fire

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Is there a reason to take Reflexive rather than Always On?
Always On isn't a Limitation once the ability has Affect Substantial, Can Carry Objects, and Partial Change. That said, a Limitation that gets rid of the ability to fly and walk through walls would probably be more appropriate than the Reflexive and Uncontrollable+Unconscious Only setup. If you drop those, you probably don't need Partial Change either, as I think that's only to prevent sudden changes from somehow messing you up. So that works out to Insubstantiality (Affect Substantial +100%; Can Carry Objects, Heavy +100%; Cannot Fly or Walk Through Walls -??). That's only [240], minus whatever that last Limitation would be worth. You'll have to turn the invulnerability off if you're stumbling around at extra heavy encumbrance, or find an Enhancement for Extra Heavy.

Total cost probably isn't going to exceed [250]. Note this is also the cost for Unkillable 2 [100] + Regeneration, Ridiculous (10 HP/second) [150], which has a rather comparable effect, so [250] sounds about right for a base Immunity to Damage trait. It would be kind of funny to make a DF template off of this - the character would be built entirely off of the [50] or so points from Disadvantages. Note Cosmic effects will ignore your Immunity, and the GM might allow for certain other methods of bypassing it (for Insubstantiality, Maledictions, Affect Substantial, and the like ignore it, while for the regen build simply continuously doing more than the character's HP in injury each second will keep him from reviving).
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Old 09-14-2015, 11:15 AM   #6
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Default Re: Building Immunity: Fire

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If you drop those, you probably don't need Partial Change either, as I think that's only to prevent sudden changes from somehow messing you up.
You still need Partial Change, or (frex) allies you were holding onto suddenly aren't.
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Old 09-14-2015, 11:17 AM   #7
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Default Re: Building Immunity: Fire

Seems we're landing someplace around 250-300 points?
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Old 09-14-2015, 11:19 AM   #8
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Default Re: Building Immunity: Fire

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You still need Partial Change, or (frex) allies you were holding onto suddenly aren't.
You can Affect Substantial and Carry Objects. I don't see why these don't extend to holding onto other characters. In fact, the "not actually insubstantial" Limitation (which should leave you vulnerable to being grappled and pinned, unlike the version from Powers) should probably handle this case as well, if for some reason the above two don't.

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Originally Posted by Anders View Post
Seems we're landing someplace around 250-300 points?
Yep. Well, maybe [200]-[300], as I'm not certain what "Not Actually Insubstantial" would be worth as a Limitation. But, yeah, I think [250] is a good middle ground price. Note that if it's available without needing a Limited Defenses Limitation of some sort, there should probably be "Bypasses Invulnerability" Powers or gear available. For a Power, this is going to be somewhere between +20% (Affects Insubstantial) and +300% (Cosmic Irresistible Attack); I'd probably go with +50%. For gear, it's probably going to be reliant on some sort of weird science and be rare/expensive, like the Hex2O (which I assume is some sort of magical water) that ignores Invulnerability in the Magellan Academy webcomic.

Last edited by Varyon; 09-14-2015 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 09-14-2015, 11:33 AM   #9
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Default Re: Building Immunity: Fire

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You still need Partial Change, or (frex) allies you were holding onto suddenly aren't.
So you can carry them, if they weigh less than Heavy encumbrance, but you can't hold on to them.

...

I have trouble visualizing this.
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Old 09-14-2015, 07:57 AM   #10
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Default Re: Building Immunity: Fire

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Could you build an immunity to fire as Insubstantial (Flames only, -80%)?
If you were to allow it at all it's a limited defense, and by no stretch of the imagination will flames qualify for -80%. Water, which is certainly not more common as an attack than flames, only gives you a -40%.

Also, if you have Insubstantial (only some things) there are by definition substantial things you can interact with, so you must take the +100% Affects Substantial enhancement, which will drive up the cost a good deal.

I personally am always very skeptical of limited Insubstantiality, but Insubstantial (Flames only -40%, Affects Substantial +100%, Can Carry Objects +100%) [208] isn't really an abusive cost for immune to fire while still being able to interact with matter more or less normally. You don't need a ridiculous lot of DR to be immune to fire really. Real fires rarely inflict more than 20 or 30 hp per turn. Assuming energy weapons scale about the same way they did for when we had rules for their power consumption, bathing in plasma so hot it destroys fires (i.e. so hot combustion products can't form) is only around 150 hp/turn.
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