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Old 11-22-2021, 04:24 AM   #1
Shaira
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default Alchemy

Hi everyone,

So I'm trying to figure out how Alchemy works in TFT. The IQ14 Alchemy talent says the Alchemist is "familiar with all the formulas on the Alchemist Table and, with access to the proper books, materials, and facilities, can make them." I'm assuming that this means a beginning character doesn't have automatic access to these proper books, etc, so, without a bit more effort and expenditure, just having the Alchemy talent alone doesn't mean you can make a potion straight off the bat. You need access to a book, materials, and facilities.

ITL also says that Chemists aren't wizards, but Alchemists are. I'm assuming this means that Alchemists, being wizards, are assumed to know at least one spell, and are therefore familiar with the process of spell-casting, which is therefore an ability necessary when creating alchemical potions.

So far so good. Now, by the "Alchemist Table", I'm assuming this means the list of Alchemists' Potions on ITL pp147-148. In theory, any Wizard character, REGARDLESS OF IQ, is capable of making any of those potions, as long as he has the Alchemy talent and access to an alchemical book for that potion, plus materials and facilities. So, the Revival spell itself is IQ19, but an Alchemist with IQ14 could (eventually!) make a Revival potion, assuming he made 20 consecutive 3/DX rolls (!) and had a whole bunch of money, etc.

Now here's where I start to need to interpret the rules. ITL p145 says the "worth" of an alchemical (or chemical) book is "about $20 per page". I'm assuming that "worth" means that's how much it costs to buy an alchemical book for a potion. So, if our beginning Alchemist character wants to be able to make a Healing potion, he'll need to spend $100 to buy a 5-page "book" detailing how to make one, and then get access to materials and facilities. It doesn't matter how complex the underlying spell is; the cost of the book is purely based on how many pages it has to make the potion. Presumably you can buy this book from the Wizards' Guild.

An Alchemist with all the info to make all the Alchemists' Potions would have a "book" (probably a small library) of 615 pages, and costing a total of $12300. In addition, he'd need to spend money on materials and facilities as indicated.

ITL p145 also says it's possible to "rent" an Alchemical Laboratory from the Wizards' Guild for $150 per week, plus $50 for materials. I'm not sure whether that means $50/week for materials. Also, I don't *think* that $150 / week automatically gets you access to the book you need for a given potion, but it's not clear; the following paragraph suggests an alchemical lab requires a "specialized library", which you might have access to for $150/week at the Wizards' Guild, but again it's not clear whether that includes books for each of the potions on the "Alchemist Table".

To brew an Alchemists' Potion, the Alchemist's IQ is irrelevant; it's purely a question of making one 3/DX for each week required to create the potion, and never failing once (or start again!).

The "costs" indicated for each Chemical and Alchemical Potion refer to the average retail price for a given potion, assuming all things are equal.

Obviously there's lots of scope for tweaks and houserules in all of the above, but, as far as I can see, that's the Rules As Written (subject to a bit of interpretation). Am I missing anything, do you think?

Cheers,

Sarah

Last edited by Shaira; 11-22-2021 at 04:58 AM.
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Old 11-22-2021, 05:28 AM   #2
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Alchemy

The potion and enchantment prices in the rulebook are inconsistent with the listed costs of production. (Apprentices aren't allocated their cost of living for example.)
Here's a breakdown on the costs and massive losses in potion making.
https://www.hcobb.com/tft/Potion_Problems.html


Wizards don't pay double to learn Alchemy. The only advantage to an Alchemist to being a wizard is that their workshop is then dual use between Alchemy and Enchantment. (ITL 142) This would only come up if the wizard alchemist took an hour off of potion production to cast a spell from a book. So it's nice for alchemists to also be wizards but this very very rarely matters.
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Last edited by hcobb; 11-22-2021 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 11-22-2021, 09:38 AM   #3
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Default Re: Alchemy

Sarah is writing about RAW. There's no errata for alchemy contradicting her (pretty damned thorough) summary, far as I know, so it's a bit misleading to say the rules in ITL are "wrong". What Henry means is that the RAW leads to unreasonable outcomes, not that Sarah used an unreliable source.

(Mind you, I haven't carefully thought about Henry's findings, so I don't have an opinion of whether he's right or wrong.)
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Old 11-22-2021, 11:16 AM   #4
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: Alchemy

It is a pretty big problem for community building that some people use threads of this sort to spread confusing, tongue-in-cheek arguments about their various house rules and critiques. That sort of thing belongs in its own clearly marked threads or sub-forums.

And i agree that the OP nicely summarized what ITL says about alchemists. I personally do not require that Alchemists must know a spell or be, officially, 'wizards'. Among other reasons, i don't like the idea that you can only learn a talent if you are a wizard, yet wizards have to pay double the talent point cost for it because that's what's required of them for every talent but Literacy. As for the statement that 'alchemists are wizards', I chalk that up to the author musing over the nature of alchemy rather than vaguely suggesting a formal set of rules. Honestly, ITL has a lot of loose statements like that and you just have to learn to roll with them. Re. the requirement for access to facilities, I adjudicate that by saying you know the various recipes but have to have a recipe book to work from, obtain the raw materials and get access to a stocked, functioning Alchemical laboratory to complete the syntheses.

Re. the DX rolls, I am not crazy about the idea that you have to start over on a normal failure, as it makes quite a bit of the field almost statistically impossible. Applying the more moderate rules governing weekly Enchantment rolls makes more sense to me. But that would be a house rule if you followed my suggestion.

Last edited by larsdangly; 11-22-2021 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 11-22-2021, 12:05 PM   #5
phiwum
 
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Default Re: Alchemy

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
It is a pretty big problem for community building that some people use threads of this sort to spread confusing, tongue-in-cheek arguments about their various house rules and critiques. That sort of thing belongs in its own clearly marked threads or sub-forums.

And i agree that the OP nicely summarized what ITL says about alchemists. I personally do not require that Alchemists must know a spell or be, officially, 'wizards'. Among other reasons, i don't like the idea that you can only learn a talent if you are a wizard, yet wizards have to pay double the talent point cost for it because that's what's required of them for every talent but Literacy. As for the statement that 'alchemists are wizards', I chalk that up to the author musing over the nature of alchemy rather than vaguely suggesting a formal set of rules. Honestly, ITL has a lot of loose statements like that and you just have to learn to roll with them. Re. the requirement for access to facilities, I adjudicate that by saying you know the various recipes but have to have a recipe book to work from, obtain the raw materials and get access to a stocked, functioning Alchemical laboratory to complete the syntheses.

Re. the DX rolls, I am not crazy about the idea that you have to start over on a normal failure, as it makes quite a bit of the field almost statistically impossible. Applying the more moderate rules governing weekly Enchantment rolls makes more sense to me. But that would be a house rule if you followed my suggestion.
Man, the bolded bit is a good point. I think your fix (regard the sentence as not literally true) is reasonable too.
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Old 11-22-2021, 01:32 PM   #6
Axly Suregrip
 
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Default Re: Alchemy

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
yet wizards have to pay double the talent point cost for it because that's what's required of them for every talent but Literacy.
ITL pg 43 is says Wizard can learn alchemy talent at the normal cost of 3 IQ.
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Old 11-22-2021, 01:41 PM   #7
Axly Suregrip
 
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Default Re: Alchemy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaira View Post
Am I missing anything, do you think?

Cheers,

Sarah
You got it.

Maybe you know this already but you did not mention: a roll of 17 or 18 on the weekly roll means the potion explode and damages the lab and injures the maker. So, more potential costs to making a potions. (ITL pg 145 bottom left).
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Old 11-22-2021, 03:49 PM   #8
Oneiros
 
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Default Re: Alchemy

Alchemists are Wizards: I disagree with your interpretation on this one, as it explicitly talks about the point cost for a Hero or Wizard in the talent description. There's no requirement to know any spells. My interpretation is that Alchemy is a completely different approach to creating magic items (potions) than the Wizard item creation spells, which is why, yes, they can create potions that replicate numerous spells, including some powerful ones like Revival, without actually knowing the spells.

$50/Week for Materials: ITL pg 145 mentions "Manufacture of any potion will require a number of ingredients. Most are fairly ordinary (salt, iron, copper sulfate, virgin’s blood, etc.) and may be bought anywhere – these are not listed."

Pretty sure that's what the $50 is for. Also covers any beakers you accidently break.

It's the same as the weekly maintenance cost for a wizard's (and alchemist's) lab that a character owns themselves (ITL pg 142.)

Finding Alchemy Books: pg 141 mentions "Books of magic are available at the Wizards’ Guild, or from magic shops." Alchemy books are lumped in with "books of magic" on the same page, so your assumption that they're available from the Wizards Guild I'd say is pretty much correct.

House rule territory, but I'd also rule that not every formula will be available in every guild house, especially the more expensive/rarer ones. The GM may want to use the rules outlined on pg. 166 in the "Finding Magic Items for Sale" sidebar, which references finding other items as well. It's entirely possible the formula your looking for is in a private collector's library, and maybe he'll let you copy it (for a fee.)

Another house rule, but I'd also say rental labs of any type might include some books with basic formula. For example, most alchemical labs probably have a book with the Healing potion recipe in it. Chemical labs might have d4 or d6 formulas of potions $250 or less. Magical labs probably have at least the book to make an object with Light.

Last edited by Oneiros; 11-22-2021 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 11-22-2021, 04:04 PM   #9
Peter von Kleinsmid
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Join Date: May 2021
Default Re: Alchemy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaira View Post
The IQ14 Alchemy talent says the Alchemist is "familiar with all the formulas on the Alchemist Table and, with access to the proper books, materials, and facilities, can make them." I'm assuming that this means a beginning character doesn't have automatic access to these proper books, etc, so, without a bit more effort and expenditure, just having the Alchemy talent alone doesn't mean you can make a potion straight off the bat. You need access to a book, materials, and facilities.
Correct. An alchemist needs a magical laboratory, and the formula for the potion they want to make, as well as the ingredients.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaira View Post
ITL also says that Chemists aren't wizards, but Alchemists are. I'm assuming this means that Alchemists, being wizards, are assumed to know at least one spell, and are therefore familiar with the process of spell-casting, which is therefore an ability necessary when creating alchemical potions.
No. It just means alchemy uses magic, while chemistry does not (it uses chemistry). Alchemy does not require being a wizard, and it does not require knowing a spell. It does require the Alchemy talent, which is a magical-type talent that only costs wizards the same amount to learn (rather than double), but a non-wizard can also learn it, without knowing any spells.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaira View Post
So far so good. Now, by the "Alchemist Table", I'm assuming this means the list of Alchemists' Potions on ITL pp147-148.
Yes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaira View Post
In theory, any Wizard character, REGARDLESS OF IQ, is capable of making any of those potions, as long as he has the Alchemy talent and access to an alchemical book for that potion, plus materials and facilities. So, the Revival spell itself is IQ19, but an Alchemist with IQ14 could (eventually!) make a Revival potion, assuming he made 20 consecutive 3/DX rolls (!) and had a whole bunch of money, etc.
Yes. They need IQ 14 to learn and use the Alchemy talent, is all. And again, they don't need to be a wizard. The Revival spell and the Revival potion are two entirely different things (with similar effects).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaira View Post
Now here's where I start to need to interpret the rules. ITL p145 says the "worth" of an alchemical (or chemical) book is "about $20 per page". I'm assuming that "worth" means that's how much it costs to buy an alchemical book for a potion. So, if our beginning Alchemist character wants to be able to make a Healing potion, he'll need to spend $100 to buy a 5-page "book" detailing how to make one, and then get access to materials and facilities. It doesn't matter how complex the underlying spell is; the cost of the book is purely based on how many pages it has to make the potion. Presumably you can buy this book from the Wizards' Guild.
Yes, though one might consider that the complexity of a potion formula is the number of weeks and pages required. See your GM for whether you actually manage to find each formula for sale.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaira View Post
An Alchemist with all the info to make all the Alchemists' Potions would have a "book" (probably a small library) of 615 pages, and costing a total of $12300. In addition, he'd need to spend money on materials and facilities as indicated.
I haven't done the math myself lately, but sounds about right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaira View Post
ITL p145 also says it's possible to "rent" an Alchemical Laboratory from the Wizards' Guild for $150 per week, plus $50 for materials. I'm not sure whether that means $50/week for materials.
Yes, using any type of lab costs about $50 per week in upkeep costs (materials, repairs, etc, in addition to what a potion itself calls for), as mentioned also on ITL p. 142. A typical guild would typically charge that much as a regular fee.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaira View Post
Also, I don't *think* that $150 / week automatically gets you access to the book you need for a given potion, but it's not clear; the following paragraph suggests an alchemical lab requires a "specialized library", which you might have access to for $150/week at the Wizards' Guild, but again it's not clear whether that includes books for each of the potions on the "Alchemist Table".
A lab does probably both includes some general books, as well as requiring formulas for specific potions.

A lab doesn't generally include a formulas for free.

But some specific ones might provide some for free, or for a fee. All of the fees and prices listed in ITL are of course guidelines. A specific place might charge whatever it wants, or provide (or rent or sell, or not) books, or not. Ask your GM for what specifically exists and is available where you are.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaira View Post
To brew an Alchemists' Potion, the Alchemist's IQ is irrelevant; it's purely a question of making one 3/DX for each week required to create the potion, and never failing once (or start again!).
Yes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaira View Post
The "costs" indicated for each Chemical and Alchemical Potion refer to the average retail price for a given potion, assuming all things are equal.
Yes, though they're probably on the low end in most places that haven't devised safer ways to make potions than are described.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaira View Post
Obviously there's lots of scope for tweaks and houserules in all of the above...
Yes.
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Old 11-22-2021, 04:30 PM   #10
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Alchemy

One final wrinkle:
ITL 44 "A Master Physicker can also make the Healing Potion"

I have taken this to mean that they need to rent (or buy) a magic workshop, spend a week to attune themselves to the workshop, pay $50/week in workshop upkeep, and proceed exactly as an alchemist would.
If you house rule that they can make healing potions with less gear (or much more importantly cheaper ingredients by using Business Sense or Mathematician) then they might actually make a profit rather than a loss on brewing healing potions.

Can the Master Physicker identify standard and not-so-standard healing potions? Any other kind of potions?
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