The Point Always Beats the Edge Revisited and MA-compatible

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Gavynn

If I were going to use it, I would have to make a table with my character's armour listed down one side and the damage types across the top. Then the cells would have +1, +2 or whatever in the cells.

Such a table should be relatively easy to make.

Unfortunately, I have no idea how to get vBulletin to show a simple Word or Excel table.

If it's just for a single character, there is usually space for a few notes for his armour, such as:

Mail Shirt DR 4/2 --- Weight 25 --- Covers areas 9-10 and 17-18.
-1 DR imp+, +2 DR cut-, +1 DR cut.

[Gavynn]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Such a table should be relatively easy to make.

Unfortunately, I have no idea how to get vBulletin to show a simple Word or Excel table.

Exactly. We work with what we've got here on the board.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Gavynn

Exactly. We work with what we've got here on the board.

If I ever decided to submit such a proposal as a Pyramid article, however, then there would be room for an improved format, such as a handy reference table.

[Icelander]

As Luther remarked upthread, scaling is a problem for when that happy day when we finally have rules about thicker and thinner armour. As it happens, the simplified values are approximated from a previous scaleable rule, so if I wanted to scale the armour, here's how I would do it.

A note first, any scaling of DR would maintain a split armour DR like the mail 4/2 in the same proportions, aside from these rules.

Soft flexible: Most flexible armour like fur, cloth, leather and the buff coat.
At DR 3, add +1 DR vs. cut-. For every full 3 points of DR after that, add a +1 to DR against cut- and subtract a -1 DR against imp+. In addition to that, for every 6 full points of DR over 3, add a +1 to DR against cut and subtract a -1 from DR against imp and cr+.

Soft rigid: Leather, light scale and studded leather.
For every 3 full points of DR after DR 3, add a +1 DR against cut- and subtract a -1 DR against imp+. In addition to that, for every 6 full points of natural DR over 3, add a +1 DR against cut and subtract -1 DR against cr+.

Metal flexible: Mail and double mail.
At DR 6, mail (but not double mail, which already has this bonus) receives a +1 DR against cut- and +1 DR against cut. At DR 9, both types receive a +1 DR against cut- and cut; as well as -1 DR against imp+. For every full 3 points of DR after that, add a +1 DR against cut-. For every full 6 points after that, add a +1 DR against cut and a -1 DR against imp+.

Metal rigid: Lorica segmentata, scale and plate.
At DR 9 add a +1 DR against cut- and cut and subtract a -1 DR against imp+ and cr+. For every 3 full points DR over 9, add a +1 DR against cut- and subtract a -1 DR against imp+. In addition to that, for every 6 full points of DR over 9, add a +1 DR against cut and subtract -1 DR against cr+.

[DanHoward]

FWIW get rid of "studded leather". It never existed historically as an armour typology.

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

FWIW get rid of "studded leather". It never existed historically as an armour typology.

Even if it never existed in historical settings, that doesn't mean that it can't exist in fictional universes that aren't tied to Earth except through the existance of humans.

IIRC, the only "studded leather" piece of armor in the Basic Set is a skirt, presumably designed to supplement scale, mail, and plate armor as "groin and leg" padding.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

FWIW get rid of "studded leather". It never existed historically as an armour typology.

How can anyone assert that? How do you prove the absence of something?

To me at least, 'studded leather' represents any and all leather armour that is supported in some way with metal.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

Even if it never existed in historical settings, that doesn't mean that it can't exist in fictional universes that aren't tied to Earth except through the existance of humans.

Precisely.

Even if no historical army ever fielded troops wearing studded leather, orcs in fantasy worlds wear armour that's leather with some metal rivets. We need stats for such armour.

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

IIRC, the only "studded leather" piece of armor in the Basic Set is a skirt, presumably designed to supplement scale, mail, and plate armor as "groin and leg" padding.

Correct, although you could use the Light Scale stats for a fantasy world 'studded leather'.

[Gavynn]

Originally Posted by Icelander

How can anyone assert that? How do you prove the absence of something?

Now Icelander, I am really quite surprised at you. Studded leather? Studded leather finds itself in much the same position as the Brontosaurus, in a certain regard. They are similar in that those interpretations of the facts that lead to belief in the existence of studded leather have now been shown to be in error. Much in the same way the interpretation of the facts that lead to a belief in a Brontosaurus were in error. If one asserts (correctly) that there were no Brontosauruses it would hardly be defensible for one to exclaim, "How can anyone assert that? How do you prove the absence of something?"

Originally Posted by Icelander

To me at least, 'studded leather' represents any and all leather armor that is supported in some way with metal.

Ah ha - no we get to it. You just have a very strange definition of "studded leather". If your studded leather means "any and all leather armor that is supported in some way with metal" then I would just change the name to "reinforced leather" and call it a day.

Originally Posted by Icelander

orcs in fantasy worlds wear armor that's leather with some metal rivets.

Here is a picture of some fantasy armor made of leather than clearly has "some metal rivets". I would still call this "leather armor" though. If those rivets increase the defensive value of the armor at all, it is far below the granularity of the GURPS system. Some people would call that "studded leather".

The existence of "studded leather" is another one of those myths perpetuated by Dungeons and Dragons. They write about it:

Originally Posted by AD&D Arms and Equipment Guide p.8

Studded leather armor has little in common with normal leather armor. While leather armor is a hardened shell, studded leather armor is soft and supple with hundreds of metal rivets attached. The rivets are so close together that they form a flexible coating of hard metal that turns aside slashing and cutting attacks. The soft leather backing is little more than a means of securing the rivets in place.

That is the nonexistent purely fantasy "studded leather." Maybe Orcs wear it in fantasy games, or whatever. AD&D notes his is a great armor for pirates to wear. *shrug*

I have been looking online for one pictures I have in a book in hand, but cannot find it. But this picture looks well enough like it to illustrate the point. Is this the type of thing you are calling "studded leather" Icelander. It is leather armor that is supported by metal, but it is not the studs (or rivets) that increase its defensive capability. It is the metal plates on the other side. I would think you would want to differentiate between something like this and the traditional fantasy studded leather AD&D describes.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Gavynn

Now Icelander, I am really quite surprised at you. Studded leather? Studded leather finds itself in much the same position as the Brontosaurus, in a certain regard. They are similar in that those interpretations of the facts that lead to belief in the existence of studded leather have now been shown to be in error. Much in the same way the interpretation of the facts that lead to a belief in a Brontosaurus were in error. If one asserts (correctly) that there were no Brontosauruses it would hardly be defensible for one to exclaim, "How can anyone assert that? How do you prove the absence of something?"

I was just curious how anyone had gone about proving that studded leather was never used. I'm not really asserting that it was, you see, but I can't see how anyone would be able to be certain.

Originally Posted by Gavynn

Ah ha - no we get to it. You just have a very strange definition of "studded leather". If your studded leather means "any and all leather armor that is supported in some way with metal" then I would just change the name to "reinforced leather" and call it a day.

I used 'studded leather' because that's the name given in BASIC. I'm fine with reinforced leather and indeed, use that name most often when I mention it.

Originally Posted by Gavynn

Here is a picture of some fantasy armor made of leather than clearly has "some metal rivets". I would still call this "leather armor" though. If those rivets increase the defensive value of the armor at all, it is far below the granularity of the GURPS system. Some people would call that "studded leather".

It depends. I'd have to see how big the rivets are on the inside. It could be DR 1, 2 or 3; all depending on how tough the leather is and how big the rivets are on the inside.

Originally Posted by Gavynn

I have been looking online for one pictures I have in a book in hand, but cannot find it. But this picture looks well enough like it to illustrate the point. Is this the type of thing you are calling "studded leather" Icelander. It is leather armor that is supported by metal, but it is not the studs (or rivets) that increase its defensive capability. It is the metal plates on the other side. I would think you would want to differentiate between something like this and the traditional fantasy studded leather AD&D describes.

I'd give that DR 3, sure, and call it reinforced leather. GURPS doesn't have stats for it yet, but I use something similar to Light Scale.