Shotguns and RoF... is there a better way?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I typically put all 10 rounds on paper in the 300 yards rapid-fire. I wasn't even a very good shot. I've seen lots of people put all 10 rounds into the target silhouette. Now that isn't auto-fire, but it is very fast semi-auto shooting.

Are you talking about 3-4 bursts of about 3 shots each, or something else?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Are you talking about 3-4 bursts of about 3 shots each, or something else?

No. It's one minute to fire two magazines of five rounds. Most shooters don't need all the time to do this, of course.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

No. It's one minute to fire two magazines of five rounds. Most shooters don't need all the time to do this, of course.

Ah. Somewhere I picked up the misconception that 'rapid fire' stands for multiple shots per trigger pool.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Ah. Somewhere I picked up the misconception that 'rapid fire' stands for multiple shots per trigger pool.

Not in the Marine Corps it doesn't (well except for Machine Guns, anyway). Basically the only training I ever got about the Burst setting for the M-16/M-4 was how to never ever use it.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

No. It's one minute to fire two magazines of five rounds. Most shooters don't need all the time to do this, of course.

So that's more than enough time, under GURPS rules, to make all 10 shots individually Aimed.

Which makes the game mechanics cheerfully compatible with 10/10 hits.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

No. It's one minute to fire two magazines of five rounds. Most shooters don't need all the time to do this, of course.

Hitting 100% out of 10 rounds fired individually, with up to 6 seconds per shot, has absolutely nothing to do with the Close Stationary Target rules or any Rapid Fire rules. It certainly doesn't support a houserule that would make a one-hand-fired machine-pistol reliably hit a 3-foot target at 100 yards with every single round fired.

So... I'm not sure how your comment has any bearing on anything we were discussing. I'm honestly at a bit of a loss, here.

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Yes, Tactical Shooting page 6. You can treat it like a slug. See post 46.

Okay, so the rule in TS is an optional rule, providing an alternative way to deal with point blank shots, changing RCL to that of slugs and changing damage to huge piercing.

I assume from that the default is RCL 1 and normal piercing damage.

So the normal way of treating point blank range is to treat the shell as Rcl 1?

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by corwyn

So the normal way of treating point blank range is to treat the shell as Rcl 1?

Depends on what you mean by "normal".

If you mean "Basic Set only", then it's not specified. It's whatever the GM assumes, basically. You could make an argument either way.

If you mean "what makes sense as the default under all the rules", then I'd go with Tactical Shooting's rule. I wouldn't even call it an optional rule so much as a clarification of the existing rule, as the other interpretation (With its Rcl 1) makes no sense.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

Depends on what you mean by "normal".

If you mean "Basic Set only", then it's not specified. It's whatever the GM assumes, basically. You could make an argument either way.

However, I'd note that the position TS eventually published was Word of Kromm before the book came out. At least some of it long before, that first quote goes to 2007.

Originally Posted by Kromm

And FWIW, when firing slug, Rcl goes up to 5 or so. Rcl is really more along the lines of "recoil divided by some positive power of the number of projectiles" for shotguns, although that's just a visualization aid and not what we actually did. What we actually did is say that for tiny little pellets, Rcl 1 means that lots will hit.

Originally Posted by Kromm

The close-range rule amounts to saying "treat it as a slug with an armor divisor of (0.25)." So the correct comparison is 9 × 1d+1 pi vs. 4d+4(0.25) pi++. Zombies have DR 0, which becomes DR 1 against attacks with a divisor less than 1 (p. B379). Zombies also have IT (Unliving), which means that pi++ does ×1 injury while pi does ×1/3 (p. B380). In essence, then, each 1d+1 pi hit inflicts on average (3.5 + 1)/3 = 1.5 points of injury; if all nine hit, that's 13.5 points. The 4d+4(0.25) pi++ hit inflicts on average 4×3.5 + 4 - 1 (for DR) = 17 points of injury. I'd say that the close-range blast is better.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

So... I'm not sure how your comment has any bearing on anything we were discussing. I'm honestly at a bit of a loss, here.

Yeah, I'm not really sure what my point was.