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Old 11-28-2010, 02:27 PM   #1
Anders
 
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Default Effects of meditative trance

Should a person who uses Meditation or Autohypnosis get a negative modifier to Perception, etc. because of his trance? How deep is the trance?
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Old 11-28-2010, 07:58 PM   #2
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Default Re: Effects of meditative trance

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Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
Should a person who uses Meditation or Autohypnosis get a negative modifier to Perception, etc. because of his trance? How deep is the trance? In the case of Autohypnosis,
Basic p. 179 says -2 to unrelated IQ, Perception, or skill rolls, but I guess that's after you've completed your Autohypnosis.

I'd probably go with a -3 to notice anything while in the Meditative or Autohypnosis state.

Last edited by Captain Joy; 11-28-2010 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 11-28-2010, 09:50 PM   #3
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Default Re: Effects of meditative trance

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Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
Should a person who uses Meditation or Autohypnosis get a negative modifier to Perception, etc. because of his trance? How deep is the trance?
There are many sorts and depths of meditation, which BTW in RL isn't the same than Autohypnosis. It's known that in occasions kids hurled stones to Ramana Marharshi in the temple while he was in Samadhi (a very ample term for different levels of depth), but since he was effectively attaining Moksha, he didn't noticed the hits.

This could be translated to no Perception at all, but as I'm saying, there are many types of meditation that can be in correspondence to the current spiritual achievement of the one meditating (the less spiritual status, more aware is one of the world of the senses, so there are more Perception; when one has a very high spiritual status, he can be well unaware of the bodily and even of the psychic and mental world, that is, diminished or no Perception at all; with complete Enlightenment (Moksha), "he" is simultaneously aware of the inner and outward faces of reality, which for him are now and forever a single thing (advaita), which can be usually translated to normal Perception again since the "Awakened one" doesn't need meditation anymore. This is a basic pattern from the Hindu Advaita Vedanta point of view, but it's (was) very similar for contemplative Vajrayana Buddhists, Muslim Sufis, Taoists, Shaivas . . .

Shamanistic practices are a different thing and I'm not entering there.

I guess one needs to house rule these things a bit because in most RPGs (well, there is Tibet RPG -I need to check it), contrary to the combat rules -for putting the easiest instance- they are vaguely portrayed, both in fluff as in crunch.
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Old 11-28-2010, 11:33 PM   #4
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Default Re: Effects of meditative trance

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Originally Posted by demonsbane View Post
I guess one needs to house rule these things a bit because in most RPGs (well, there is Tibet RPG -I need to check it), contrary to the combat rules -for putting the easiest instance- they are vaguely portrayed, both in fluff as in crunch.
Check "Technicians of the Sacred" in LTC1. It's very generic, but it's also more detailed mechanically.

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Old 11-29-2010, 05:27 AM   #5
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Default Re: Effects of meditative trance

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Check "Technicians of the Sacred" in LTC1. It's very generic, but it's also more detailed mechanically.
I did, my apologies for not quoting this part of LTC1 that effectively speaks about this.

I wasn't being oblivious about it. I didn't quoted it due two things: "Technicians of the Sacred" in page 16 doesn't directly answer to Asta Kask question, that is, what happens with your Perception while you are meditating. The other thing is that the Tibet RPG could be more explicit in some of these subjects, hence my desire of checking it -I've seen the Lite version of the game and it's interesting; however I can't say more without reading more about it.

On the other hand, I think that it's not honestly possible to be more explicit about these subjects (meditation, altered states of consciousness, spiritual states, stations -not all these are the same things, BTW) without an extensive knowledge and being outside of the frame (or "setting") own of each specific spiritual tradition -which always goes along with its own specific techniques.

Of course, in the book you're mentioning, we can read parts as this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Low-Tech Companion 1: Philosophers and Kings, p. 16
Hallucinogens (...) produce altered states of consciousness directly. Treat the recipient as hallucinating (p. B429) – but a priest or shaman, if present, can frame this experience in religious terms with a successful Religious Ritual roll.
From this we could interpret that he'd be suffering from -2 to -5 not only to Perception, but to all his success rolls. And in the worst case, he could be freaked without being able to do anything.

However, I was answering to Asta Kask from a perspective which usually is or was handled without the use of drugs. Because that and me don't wanting to muddle the things, I wasn't entering into the Shamanistic point of view, more open to drug use -even if Shamanism is a very broad term, too, for some different things.
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Last edited by demonsbane; 11-29-2010 at 05:32 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old 11-29-2010, 07:34 AM   #6
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Default Re: Effects of meditative trance

I'm talking about Ice Age shamans who 'ride the drum', much like their late Sami descendants.
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Old 11-29-2010, 08:01 AM   #7
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Default Re: Effects of meditative trance

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Check "Technicians of the Sacred" in LTC1. It's very generic, but it's also more detailed mechanically.
I forgot to say that these are a set of very well tought rules. The ones that I saw in the Tibet RPG seemed to be along the same lines.

For instance, I remember a bit about some rules for Tantric rituals, their link with Erotic Art and the relationship with an actual partner. Most of this seemed to me very similar to the rules in LTC1 despite being a different rule set.

In fact, I think that the Tibet RPG material could be easily translated to GURPS terms, if one regards that as useful or necessary -and now it's even easier thanks to the "crunchy" guidelines included in Low Tech Companion 1: Philosophers and Kings, p. 16.

BTW, I like very much the implementation of Body Disciplines for attaining trance states.
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Old 11-29-2010, 08:06 AM   #8
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Default Re: Effects of meditative trance

Also, interestingly, achieved daily at rave events, even without recreational chemicals. I need to find that paper again, but there was a bit of ethnological study examining the parallels between sacred ecstatic dance traditions and the 8-12 hr endurance dancing at a rave - strong rhythmic music, hothouse environment, vigorous dancing to the point of exhaustion - sometimes with the use of stimulants like caffeine (or stronger chemicals) to prolong the dancers ability to perform, sometimes combined with various mind altering chemicals (alcohol on up), etc. etc.

The key differences being that ravers are doing it en masse, and purely for the sensation - the state of altered consciousness is the end, not the means to an end.
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Old 11-29-2010, 08:28 AM   #9
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Default Re: Effects of meditative trance

Not all meditations are the same. I could write GURPS: Meditation, if I had the time, in which various meditations would be shown to provide different modifiers.

The meditation I practice probably gives a +2 to Perception while practicing in addition to permanent bonuses to Per, IQ, DX, HT, and Will over time. One of the most common misconceptions about meditation is that it is like sleep in which there is a decreased level of awareness during the state. I doubt, for instance, that Ramana Maharishi "didn't notice" stones thrown at him while he was meditation so much as he didn't care.

Having said that, I'd probably give "riding the drum" a -4 to Per but a +2 for the purposes of Detect, Medium, etc.
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Old 11-29-2010, 08:43 AM   #10
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Default Re: Effects of meditative trance

IDHMBWM but I would concur with Edges. I do clinical hypnosis for chronic pain management as part of my practice and, in gaming terms, I think that there are two major variables of interest to you here. First is the depth of the trance, and second is whether increased perceptive abilities is part of the purpose of of being in the trance, counter to the purpose, or neutral.

In the last two cases, I would suggest that you have a -1 to PER for each level of increase in other skills or attributes, where level of perception is irrelevant to the purpose of the trance, and -2 to PER per level of increase if it's actually counter (like trying to put conceptual distance between you and your body's sensations).
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