Where the pike?

[Kromm]

Yeah, use Supers to scale up a proper personal-combat spear. A pike is too unwieldy for anyone under 3m tall even to attempt to use with the kind of precision needed for individual combat. It has less to do with strength than with arm length; spear moves involve placing your hands some percentage of the spear's length apart, from the head, from the butt, etc. If somebody that big did get a pike, and was strong enough to use it as a spear, then the pike would likely be too slender for his mighty strength. A pike isn't a scaled-up spear; it's a really long spear. A scaled-up spear would be much thicker.

[t@nya]

For the record I'm converting some AD&D monsters to GURPS. The pike is listed as one of the weapons orcs use. From what's been said here AD&D gets it wrong.

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Yeah, use Supers to scale up a proper personal-combat spear. A pike is too unwieldy for anyone under 3m tall even to attempt to use with the kind of precision needed for individual combat. It has less to do with strength than with arm length; spear moves involve placing your hands some percentage of the spear's length apart, from the head, from the butt, etc. If somebody that big did get a pike, and was strong enough to use it as a spear, then the pike would likely be too slender for his mighty strength. A pike isn't a scaled-up spear; it's a really long spear. A scaled-up spear would be much thicker.

I remember reading it was fairly common for veteran units in the English Civil War to cut down their pikes to improve mobility and let them perform better if caught in individual combat at the expense of lessened efficiency in 'push of pike'. But some accounts of combat with "pikes" (and most fictional references to city watch or other folks using them for street patrol, man-to-man fighting, etc.) may involve weapons that started out as pikes, but are really functionally long spears.

That said, I think pike should have been included in Basic Set, just in case you're caught with one, but the real reason was that the optional rules for using it can be kind of complex, and the space was better served with coverage of other material.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by David L Pulver

I remember reading it was fairly common for veteran units in the English Civil War to cut down their pikes to improve mobility and let them perform better if caught in individual combat at the expense of lessened efficiency in 'push of pike'. But some accounts of combat with "pikes" (and most fictional references to city watch or other folks using them for street patrol, man-to-man fighting, etc.) may involve weapons that started out as pikes, but are really functionally long spears.

This is my understanding as well. A "pike" is often what's left of a pike after it has been cut down to what the game calls a long spear, a spear, or in a few cases even a short spear. You can call it Alice, if you want, but it's no longer a pike except in origin. The pikestaff (p. 221) assumes such a snapped-off weapon -- in this case, the half without the point. The long spear in the Basic Set would be the half with the point.

[t@nya]

Originally Posted by Kromm

This is my understanding as well. A "pike" is often what's left of a pike after it has been cut down to what the game calls a long spear, a spear, or in a few cases even a short spear. You can call it Alice, if you want, but it's no longer a pike except in origin. The pikestaff (p. 221) assumes such a snapped-off weapon -- in this case, the half without the point. The long spear in the Basic Set would be the half with the point.

Okay, thanks. I guess I'll give my orcs long spears and say that they're pikes that been shortened.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by t@nya

Yeah I've got a copy around though I haven't read it in detail.

My copy's not right at hand, but the section is somewhere in chapter 7. It may help you fake a pike, treating it either as a long spear or as a long axe, I think.

Bill Stoddard

[t@nya]

Originally Posted by whswhs

My copy's not right at hand, but the section is somewhere in chapter 7. It may help you fake a pike, treating it either as a long spear or as a long axe, I think.

Bill Stoddard

I'll reread that chapter when I've got a chance to. I'm going off to one of my gaming groups soon. :)

[Sword-dancer]

Originally Posted by Kromm

- in this case, bills, halberds, bows, crossbows, muskets, etc. The fact that some chap is holding onto the far end makes it look melee-weapon-ish, but use is closer to something like Explosives, Poisons, or Traps in nature, in that it's all about effective deployment, not parry, feint, and thrust.."

Sorry but AFAIK you´re wrong on this or better you´re referring to the late time of pike use.

The pike was a weapon used to wound. maim and kill sarriisaari and swiss pikemen were used to use the pike in phalanx and pike blocks as an offensive weapon and tactics
Used in both hands i think it was also possible to feint with it, as well as parry, thrust and strike, which was done if soeone went behind the point.

I think a martial-arts historian could make a good case for pike warfare only be a "martial art" inasmuch as artillery gunnery and logistics are "martial arts

I´ve reason to think that many a martial arts "historian" isn`t an historian at all, onlly repeating victorian fairy stories.

Originally Posted by David L Pulver

I remember reading it was fairly common for veteran units in the English Civil War to cut down their pikes to improve mobility and let them perform better if caught in individual combat at the expense of lessened efficiency in 'push of pike'.

Where that the 6 m pikes? The swiss pikes were IIRC about 4,50 m, and were used offensiveley, and that with deadly efficiency.

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by Sword-dancer

ikes? The swiss pikes were IIRC about 4,50 m, and were used offensiveley, and that with deadly efficiency.

I'd certainly be happy to see a pike with stats something like:

SPEAR (DX-5, Polearm-4, or Staff-2)
TL Weapon Damage Reach Parry Cost Wt. ST
2 Pike thr+3 imp 3,4* -1 $70 dunno, 6-7? 10+

or something like that, anyway, to represent a 4m-4.5m pike, or a 6m pike cut down to combat length. That's just off the cuff, though.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Sure, and GURPS Supers has guidelines for scaling up a longer weapon's weight, required ST, and thrust and swing damage. Do you have a copy of it?

I'm looking at doing a double length katana for one of my upcoming campaigns, for a Japanese super named Samebito. . . .

Bill Stoddard

Great. I hope that address specifically the slight problem of my Norse Giant with his three yard sword! :-)

And yes, I have a copy of Supers, but yet not enough time for reading it thoroughly :-/