07-05-2006, 05:19 PM | #31 | |||||
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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Re: Armoury of Antiquity: Questions regarding archaic arms and armor
Sounds like we have a viking re-enactor who is a bit upset at being told he shouldn't be wearing lamellar. It was my belief that a re-enactor should be portraying the "typical" not the exception.
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Last edited by DanHoward; 07-05-2006 at 10:42 PM. |
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07-05-2006, 09:41 PM | #32 |
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Charlotte, North Caroline, United States of America, Earth?
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Re: Armoury of Antiquity: Questions regarding archaic arms and armor
On a side note, I decided to figure out some things, like a horse's burden.
I came up with this: ST 12, 175lb rider, wearing 61lbs of armor(mail coif, torso, arms and legs, with a pot helm, and boots), 10lbs of weapons(Lance, broadsword, large knife), an 8lb shield, and 42lbs of military saddle and bit and bridle. That's 296 lbs, or 8 lbs over the meduim encumberance of a cavalry horse(ST 22). If you reduce the weight of the mail armor by 20%, that frees 10lbs. If the Cavalry horse is ST 23, it's also enough to allow meduim encumberance. That strikes me as about right. Also, a ST22 horse, charging(move 9) allows for 1d+3 lance damage, or about the same as a ST 13 man using a kontos. That also seems fine. If the horse has ST 23, then it does a mode powerful 2d+3 charging. The lower average damage(the ST22 horse, assumign a 20% reduction in armor weight) would average 6-7 damage against mail, for 2-6 damage over-all, assuming penetration. That's enough for a major wound on most troops. However, heavier cavalry(Kataphractoi) would be unimpressed by the damage to their torso, and scarcely notice the damage to their arms(it being 1-3 points). If the Emperor Komenos was wearing a lammelar breastlat(I'd call it a Lorica Segmentata for DR and weight), and double mail(which I would assume could cover Emperor's weave), we're looking at DR 10, enough to block the average damage of a 2d+3 lance, and reduce the maximuim damage to 10. 2-4 pts of impaling damage can be see nas bruising, perhaps a bit of puncture, after-all, in a week, he would be feeling the soreness. And I imagine catching a lance to the chest would make you sore. So our Emperor might have been pretty damn lucky. He made out well at Durrachion, so I think we may have been lucky. :) Also, for the Cataphracts chasing down fleeing infantry: if we assume a basic speed of 5.25 or 5.5, we have an unencumbered move of 5 for a human. If we further assume ST 11(he's a soldier, after-all), then we have a basic lift of 24. If our average man in this case wears a pot helm, cloth gambeson(arms, torso and groin), leather leggings and boots, that's 18lbs. A spear(or axe) and large knife adds 5lbs to that. Our soldier is barely under his basic lift in encumberance, and has a 5/6 move. If we were to give out soldier leather torso and arm protection, we would see him lightly encumbered, and given a 4/5 movement. This is insufficient to the speed of the cataphracts, though nor much more so. I've pretty much just desribed the average infantryman, from Arab, to Byzantine, to Christian europe. Such a man would more likely than not carry a shield of some variety. But in flight, the shield and many of his weapons would be thrown away. |
07-05-2006, 10:39 PM | #33 |
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Downunder, mate!
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Re: Armoury of Antiquity: Questions regarding archaic arms and armor
To briefly ignore the rules in GURPS and insert some real world common sense:
Anyone who thinks infantry can outrun cavalry has obviously not spent much time around horses. Yes, it is true that near onlympic class athletes can over long distances match mounted horses for terrain covered. Typically you have to be talking 20 to 800 miles for the human to win the race. Over anything up to a few miles, the human has absolutely no hope at all. An olympic class human can do a "4 minute mile" - a racehorse will cover two miles in around 3 minutes 20 seconds, carrying 55 to 60 kg (120 to 130 pounds). Over any sort of useful "combat / tactical" distance, the horse is twice as fast as the human. What makes this comparison even worse or the infantry is that I'm comparing olympic record humans with racehorses. The gap between your average soldier and a modern olympic athlete is substantially larger than the gap between a standard cavalry horse and a champion racehorse.
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07-05-2006, 10:50 PM | #34 |
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Charlotte, North Caroline, United States of America, Earth?
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Re: Armoury of Antiquity: Questions regarding archaic arms and armor
what you're leaving out is that in the case of Kataphractoi, there's about 300-400lbs of gear on the horse, compared to the 30 or so for an infantryman.
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07-05-2006, 11:05 PM | #35 | |
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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Re: Armoury of Antiquity: Questions regarding archaic arms and armor
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07-05-2006, 11:13 PM | #36 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
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Re: Armoury of Antiquity: Questions regarding archaic arms and armor
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07-05-2006, 11:47 PM | #37 |
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Charlotte, North Caroline, United States of America, Earth?
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Re: Armoury of Antiquity: Questions regarding archaic arms and armor
Well, I was using the non practical GURPS weights. Still, by the last two posts, a horse is carrying about 320lbs(160 for the armor of the horse, saddles stuff, the kataphractoi's armor, and his weapons, and 160 for a Kataphractoi, which given the weapons used is a small guy. I prefer 175 as a mean weight for a rider). This is considerably more than the weight a modern race horse carries.
Am I wrong here? |
07-06-2006, 12:09 AM | #38 | |
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Location: Italy
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Re: Armoury of Antiquity: Questions regarding archaic arms and armor
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07-06-2006, 07:10 AM | #39 |
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Charlotte, North Caroline, United States of America, Earth?
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Re: Armoury of Antiquity: Questions regarding archaic arms and armor
Yeah, but that guy wanted to do completely ludacris things, like wear his armor over-land, and carry all his gear, and be a 220lb guy, and wear the heaviest armor he could. Wheras I'm more going for an average man, an average horse, and period armor and gear.
So far, it looks like, though GURPS weight rules are a bit off, a mail armoured knight, with full gear, can maintain a 4/9 movement speed. Heavy troops like Cataphractoi cannot push much faster than 3/6. I'm fine with this. |
07-06-2006, 08:01 AM | #40 | ||
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Location: Germany
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Re: Armoury of Antiquity: Questions regarding archaic arms and armor
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