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Old 02-19-2020, 12:58 PM   #21
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Killing Superman [Powers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Actually I need to take that back, I overlooked "You can only affect one source at a time" under the +300%. So it probably does function similarly to Alternative Abilities.


That part about "even if there are no countermeasures" is not mentioned under Neutralize though.

I think "any" should be read in context of the established parameters on P97:

Possibilities include magic, psi, spirit, and anything else the GM deems susceptible to neutralization.
Quoting this does lead me to notice a problem though. "Spirit" doesn't actually mention power countermeasures in it's pricing. P28 doesn't seem to imply that Neutralize (Spirit) exists...

-20 for fickle
-5 imposed disad

This is in basic how you get to the -25 total. There's no additional -5 for countermeasures which should bring the modifier to -30 if Neutralize (Spirit) existed.

There is a weird note about -5 / +5 which doesn't really make sense to me. -5 for your power sometimes being deprived at the worst possible moment... is that just reiterating the "show basic respect" disadvantage? Or is that meant to be an additional -5?

There's a +5 mentioned because "they ultimately want you to turn them loose on the world, though, it’s easy to make amends" which doesn't make sense to me. How would that completely offset the -5 for sometimes losing your powers? You still had to make amends so it was an inconvenience...

This makes me wonder though... if the 2nd instance of -5 was reiterating the 1st instance, then the +5 for making amends would bring -25 to -20, so to reach the -25 final, perhaps they originally intended to include a -5 for countermeasures like Neutralize (Spirit) but forgot it?

ANYWAY, getting back to this, P21 is very clear:
"nothing can take away the wielder’s power"
"enables the power’s abilities to work normally against attacks and opposing abilities enhanced with more expensive Cosmic options."

Cosmic is clearly off the table, and I think Biological/Chi/Elemental/Nature are too, unless the GM makes those limitations worth an additional -5% due to the existence of a Neutralize which can target them. I'll take "Spirit" off the table since it actually weirdly gets called out in Neutralize and there's this weird -5/-5/+5 writing in Spirit which may or may not add up.


I think it would be worth +300% merely to be able to target the usual four categories priced as susceptible to some form of Neutralize/Static (Magic/Psi/Super/Moral) simultaneously.

With no other modifiers in place, you're paying quadruple the price [200] which is the same cost as 4 separate kinds of Neutralize.

One benefit here is that rather than paying for enhancements multiple times for each of the base-50 abilities, you only have to buy it once. So for example if you bought Reliable+2 +10% [5] on 4 different base-5 abilities, that's going to cost you 5x4=20 points, so if you only need to buy it once, you're saving 15 points. This is a huge deal if you're needing to buy range or duration enhancements as they can get pretty expensive.

The drawback here is of course that you can only take limitations once, so you save fewer points.

Obviously you can save way more doing this with Alternative Abilities:

Neutralize Magic [50]
Neutralize Moral [10]
Neutralize Psi [10]
Neutralize Super [10]
You don't even need to take "Reduced Time" to avoid spending a Ready maneuver to switch between them. P11:
After switching to an attack (Affliction, Binding, Innate Attack, Leech, Neutralize, Obscure, Static, and anything else the GM views as an “attack”), switching to a different attack is a free action.
This is a nod to how Alternative Attacks works. I personally don't like it, but it's canon. However you ARE Still limited to 1 attack type per second/maneuver/turn:

If the user can make more than one attack per turn, he must use the same setting for all of them.
That's the key part: someone with +300% does NOT have that limitation. If they have multiple attacks they could neutralize different sources each turn.

Another thing here, is that huge enhancements open the window to having them paid by collecting high-value limitations. That's not a door opened with Alternative Abilities. If you want 4 alternative Neutralizes, you're still paying a -80% minimum of 10 points for the 1st and 2 points apiece for the other 3, for a minimum cost of 16 points.

A single instance of Neutralize with Cosmic +300% however, can be reduced to 10 points by taking -380% in limitations. So if you're one of those guys who collects Temporary Disadvantages, you're in luck with that enhancement.
Any means anything. Sources like Magic, Moral, Psionic, and Supers have specific antipowers, which is why they receive a -5% limitation, but anything can be neutralized with the right version of neutralize (for example, Neutralize (Chi) would neutralize Chi powers despite there not being an Antichi power). Even Cosmic does not avoid Cosmic, as it only protects against ordinary countermeasures (Neutralize can neutralize ordinary powers while Neutralize (Cosmic, +300%) can neutralize anything with a source). Since they explicitly list talents and sourceless advantages as exceptions to any, they would have explicitly listed Cosmic as an exception if they meant it to be an exception.
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Old 02-19-2020, 01:32 PM   #22
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Default Re: Killing Superman [Powers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Any means anything. Sources like Magic, Moral, Psionic, and Supers have specific antipowers, which is why they receive a -5% limitation, but anything can be neutralized with the right version of neutralize (for example, Neutralize (Chi) would neutralize Chi powers despite there not being an Antichi power). Even Cosmic does not avoid Cosmic, as it only protects against ordinary countermeasures (Neutralize can neutralize ordinary powers while Neutralize (Cosmic, +300%) can neutralize anything with a source). Since they explicitly list talents and sourceless advantages as exceptions to any, they would have explicitly listed Cosmic as an exception if they meant it to be an exception.
I agree with this examination.

On pg 97, the statement is made:
"You can neutralize any power, regardless of source."
The emphasis is in the book.

Later in the paragraph is does state:
"You still can’t drain Talents, or advantages without power modifiers."
So, it is fairly easy to infer that it does mean that even the powers that do not normally include countermeasures in their modifiers are accounted for by the +300% cosmic. This tracks with the +300% version of Cosmic, in general.

As an example:
A Cosmic neutralize could neutralize Charlemagne's ability to talk to animals because that's an inherent, psionic power Charlemagne possesses. However, they could not neutralize his immunity to fire because that is a boon granted to him by fire itself. Fire chooses not to harm him. It's still built as an insubstantial ability on his character sheet, but it can't be taken away by Neutralize because it doesn't have a power modifier.

And Pink's (now upgraded to iRay with Force Fields) Resistant to Neutralize (Immunity; Cosmic) [45] would render her immune to Neutralize outright.
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Old 02-19-2020, 01:35 PM   #23
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Default Re: Killing Superman [Powers]

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Originally Posted by WaterAndWindSpirit View Post
I'm guessing "everything" does include a Kryptonite bullet then. Which is definitely fair enough.
Why?

Before and after that brief window when he kills Superman, the character with this power is a perfectly normal human. In the absence of superpowered individuals to steal powers from, that character is no harder to kill than Joe Blow.
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Old 02-19-2020, 02:54 PM   #24
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Default Re: Killing Superman [Powers]

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Any means anything.
The counterargument to that is obviously "and nothing means no thing".

P21 and P97 contain absolute-sounding sources, and only one can win.

I see the +300% as pertaining to the introductory statement:
This attack lets you neutralize all of your victim’s powers of a given source.
Specify this source when you buy the advantage.
It basically just means you don't have to specify the source when you buy the advantage, but rather you only need to specify it when making the attack.

But you would still be limited to the types of sources which CAN be neutralized.

Basically it over-rides sentences 1+2 but not sentence 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Sources like Magic, Moral, Psionic, and Supers have specific antipowers, which is why they receive a -5% limitation, but anything can be neutralized with the right version of neutralize (for example, Neutralize (Chi) would neutralize Chi powers despite there not being an Antichi power).
In a campaign where the GM allows Neutralize (Chi) to exist (or Neutralize: X +300% cosmic to apply to it) having Chi as a power source should be worth an extra -5% on the power modifier.

The only implication I can see of this being possible in Powers is the "vs non-powers" box:
cinematic martial-arts skills (e.g., Blind Fighting and Power Blow) and chi powers
both depend on the user’s inner strength
..
For consistency’s sake, Neutralize and Static should affect these capabilities.
This is a direct contradiction to Pg 21's "No Countermeasures" though:
It’s traditionally impossible to neutralize chi powers.
This part prior:
no countermeasures except those that affect the wild versions of their abilities
means Neutralize/Static are OUT because neither affects wild versions.
This is the “default” situation; it applies to any power that can’t claim a limitation under Mundane Countermeasures or Anti-Powers.
That's not to say you can't go non-traditional and neutralize them, but then you need to do one of two things:

1) give a further discount to Chi because Neutralize exists
2) make a custom Cosmic modifier other than the +300% one which allows you to interchange between all the usual sources which have baseline neutralizes in existence, to also affect off-limits stuff like wild/cosmic/chi/etc ones which aren't limited that way
Page 20 is also important here:
when a countermeasure that doesn’t affect the wild version of an advantage does affect the version a power provides, that’s a limitation.
Neutralize is a countermeasure which doesn't (even at +300%) affect the wild version of an advantage, so it would be a limitation if even the +300% version can affect you.

Ignoring that need for a power modifier to have a -5% limitation is basically cosmic-atop-cosmic. You should definitely charge something atop the usual +300% for that kind of benefit.

Pg 8 of Power-Ups 4 "Unrestricted Powers" addresses this too, but "allows it to
work with, on, or against any power" should still be read in context of "any allowed power".

Pg 7 "Adding Utility: Avoiding Drawbacks" ("removing an inherent restriction") might be all it takes. I would say charge that for each additional off-limits power source (chi, elemental, nature, maybe spirits) you wanted to be able to choose.

Cosmic as a +50% power modifier however should still be off limits though, because it inherently has the +50% defensive cosmic built in, which would counteract that enhancement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Even Cosmic does not avoid Cosmic, as it only protects against ordinary countermeasures (Neutralize can neutralize ordinary powers while Neutralize (Cosmic, +300%) can neutralize anything with a source).
Cosmic is basically protections on top of what wild advantages have.

Being targetable by neutralize is a vulnerability, so it must be statted.

If all powers of all sources could be targeted by neutralize then we wouldn't see specific ones get a -5% limitation for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Since they explicitly list talents and sourceless advantages as exceptions to any, they would have explicitly listed Cosmic as an exception if they meant it to be an exception.
Saying "you can't drain advantages without power modifiers" isn't the same thing as saying "you can drain advantages not vulnerable to neutralize".

The thing about "any" statements is they are still limited by prior contexts. For example B324/B365 description of All-Out Attack:
Attack any foe with a ready weapon
This doesn't literally mean ANY foe: you can't attack someone who's beyond your reach after all. B369 still applies:
against any target that is within reach.


Usual restrictions apply. "Any" should be taken with a grain of salt.

It means you have freedom of choice within usual options, and the usual options of neutralize are powers which have the -5% limitation relative to wild advantages. The +0% enhancement (No Countermeasures) means Neutralize/Static and similar do not exist for that power source in any way or fashion.

You wouldn't need just +300% "Unrestricted Powers", but also the +300% "allows it to bypass non-Cosmic passive protection" to have it work on the +0% No Countermeasures stuff.

That's effectively bypassing Immunity: Neutralize/Static on these power sources, after all.

Cosmic ones would STILL be off limits, since they all ge the +50% Defensive on all their abilities built-in.
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Old 02-19-2020, 03:42 PM   #25
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Default Re: Killing Superman [Powers]

Neutralize works on all advantages with a power modifier. Nowhere does it state that the power modifier MUST include countermeasures.

Especially with a +300% Cosmic!
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Old 02-19-2020, 04:31 PM   #26
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Default Re: Killing Superman [Powers]

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Why?

Before and after that brief window when he kills Superman, the character with this power is a perfectly normal human. In the absence of superpowered individuals to steal powers from, that character is no harder to kill than Joe Blow.
Ah. I (and I assume WaterAndWindSpirit) misinterpreted your statement as meaning that the Superman-Killer can get away with just some skill with a rifle and a rifle with all the bells and whistles for killing Superman, not that the Superman-Killer can be killed rather readily by a fellow with some skill with a rifle and a rifle with all the bells and whistles. Yeah, Superman-Killer-Killer doesn't need any Kryptonite to kill Superman-Killer, but would need some (or perhaps just some literal magic bullets) to kill Superman. Assuming he attacks Superman when the alien is unaware ("Faster than a speeding bullet" implies he can be rather difficult to hit when he tries to be).
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Old 02-19-2020, 06:42 PM   #27
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Default Re: Killing Superman [Powers]

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Originally Posted by DangerousThing View Post
Neutralize works on all advantages with a power modifier.
Nowhere does it state that the power modifier MUST include countermeasures.
Yet we're clearly told you get a discount on a power if something affects it which does not affect wild advantages, ergo we need to resolve the irresistible force / immovable object dilemma.

Which is why I'm arguing the "don't take 'any' so literally that you ignore established" context approach, using previous uses of term of example:

B369 "against any target that is within reach"
B325/365 "Attack any foe with a ready weapon"

Just because 325/365 uses "any" without repeating "within reach" would not mean the elsewhere-established "within reach" parameter no longer applies.

Reach is a restriction which needs to be explicitly ignored for it not to apply, just like the need for the -5% to set it apart from the +0% default which lacks such a countermeasure.

Not only is that repeated over and over from P20-P22 but it also goes out of it's way to say how Cosmic goes above and beyond the "wild version" in being beyond reproach.

As in: even if there was a modifier for Neutralize/Static which let it interfere with wild traits, not even that would stop Cosmic.

Order of progression for enhancing Neutralize would be:
(1) specific base source (2) other targetable sources (3) wild traits (4) cosmic traits
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Old 02-19-2020, 07:38 PM   #28
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Killing Superman [Powers]

No, Neutralize is pretty much binary, either a) a particular source or b) any source except talents and advantages. There are other ways other than Neutralize to counter abilities without specific antipowers though. For example, I could take Affliction 1 (Malediction 3, +200%; Extended Duration, Permanent, +300%; Negate Disadvantage, Honesty (NA), +250%) [85] and permanently ruin any ability with a source that requires the possession of any level of Honesty. Regardless of the intention of the character, they will never have Honesty again and never have access to their abilities again. Or I can have Affliction 1 (Attribute Penalty, -20 ST, -20 DX, -20 IQ, and -20 HT, +600%; Extended Duration, Permanent, +300%; Malediction 3, +200%) [120] and permanently counter any ability by removing the ability to think or react to the environment.

Last edited by AlexanderHowl; 02-19-2020 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 02-19-2020, 08:05 PM   #29
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Default Re: Killing Superman [Powers]

P26 has a text box on zero cost modifiers.

They might have countermeasures that are different from and no more common than those that affect wild advantages.

Or they might have enhancements that balance the countermeasures.

In other words, it's up to the gm.
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Old 02-19-2020, 08:13 PM   #30
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Default Re: Killing Superman [Powers]

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Neutralize is pretty much binary, either a) a particular source or b) any source except talents and advantages.
Consider this note on page 23 of GURPS Psionic Powers:

Anti-Psi also lacks a psychic countermeasure.
There is no “Anti-Anti-Psi” power, no version of Neutralize that works on it, and so on.
It thus exists as the only power that does not offer (or need) Protected Power.
I would read that in context of "the only power in this book" ie "the only psionic power".

If Anti-Psi can be immune to neutralize, then other powers can be too. The only thing that stands out about Anti-Psi is that unlike all the other psi powers, it lacks the -5% for psi countermeasures and -5% for tech countermeasures, which is why it's +0% instead of -10% as usual for psi.

This came out 2009, ~4 years after Powers in 2005 introduced the expanded Neutralize with the +300% versatility option.

Even though Jason Levine called it Neutralize as in Basic Set rather than "Neutralize (Psi)", I don't think he would be unaware of the expanded info on it in Powers.

B71 only had Power Theft / One Power modifiers, yet we see Derange from P97 used for Psionic Overload (PP24) so it's clear he looked at it. I can't think he wrote PP23 forgetting how P97 works.

Based on your interpretation, the +300% should also allow someone to use Neutralize against the Anti-Psi power, something we're explicitly told CAN'T happen.

PP52's Steal Power has a baseline of Neutralize (Psi) so it normally can't work on Anti-Psi, but I guess I could just whip out "Temporary Enhancements" (P172) and for a -30 penalty (-1 per 10%) I can use Psychic Vampirism to take out an Anti-Psi's powers?

That sounds at first, but besides adding Talent to this Will roll, FP can be spent to cancel out penalties on a 1-1 basis and if I'm short on FP, using Psi Techniques (PP8) it would only cost me 31 character points to buy off that penalty so that I would only need to make a Will+Talent roll and spend 2 FP to get access to the +300% version of Neutralize for 1 minute.

Given that this is feasible to do, even if you don't have a version of neutralize which has the enhancement permanently, PP23 pretty clearly shows us an example of why you can't use Neutralize against ANY power, even when enhanced with the +300% version. The 'any' must be in respect to neutralizable powers, the -5% ones like magic/moral/psi/super and maybe some non-default pricier versions of chi/spirit, but definitely not nature/elemental/wild/cosmic.

Plus sources I forgot to mention (probably because they're only mentioned in respect to a power sharing their name) of Anti-Magic (P121 right) and Antipsi (P122 left) and Anti-Super (P122 right)

P122 does say is possible to design the Antipsi power with a Super-10% source, or Anti-Super with a Psi-10% source, in which case there WOULD be a way to neutralize those powers with those non-standard sources since they both include the -5% window.

The version of Antipsi in Psionic Powers is the -0% version though (Source: Antipsi) which can't be neutralized EVER (no “Anti-Anti-Psi” power, no version of Neutralize that works on it) due to lacking the -5% limitation in it's pricing, just like chi and spirit seem to lack it, though there are implications that -15% and -35% versions of chi/spirit would also exist that could be neutralized.
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