Price Efficiency of Super-ST [Powers/Supers]

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by naloth

I've never actually run a Hero's campaign, so I certainly didn't get it the idea from there. If anything it was more inspired by the GURPS adaptation of Bunnies and Burrows. The change of scale there put the emphasis where you were going to use numbers.

I recommend it. It will help you put things in perspective.

Originally Posted by naloth

Yes, there is less definition the higher the numbers get. You lose resolution between lifting 100 tons and 110 tons, and even more when you get up to higher ranges. Of course, it also makes every single level worth quite a bit as well which isn't something you can really say about the present system. I suspect there's already an acknowledgement that the difference between DR 100 -> DR 105 isn't nearly as useful as DR 20 -> DR 25. Log captures diminishing returns.

However, unless you're going to completely revamp all combat damage and be prepared for some very hinky results (again, issues seen frequently in Hero) you'll run into situations where weapons that should have no chance to hurt something, suddenly can. And the reverse, a weapon that should red-mist a person, doesn't actually give them anything more than a flesh-wound.

Originally Posted by naloth

You also get less of a red mist or eggshell effect. People don't have hundreds or thousands of HP, but equipment often does have that much DR. If you have a group like the new X-men, Colossus will be nigh invulnerable to physical threats even when they can one-shot the rest of the team.

I focus more on lower-levels of DR and higher levels of IT:DR.

Originally Posted by naloth

Finally, there are the point values. I find that you characters that are more closely matched in usefulness when ST, DR, and IT:DR aren't costing so much more than other powers. I did a few threads with sample characters (KYOS Justice League, Marvel, personal) and you can see that it makes most Avengers/X-men characters 500-1000 points with JLA movie versions around 1000.

Why is that range good? Aside from being aesthetically pleasing, it's on a scale powers that makes a Mind Probe magic lasso cost about the right proportion. On a 10k Wonder Woman, where you have a few thousand points in ST and defenses, trivial powers like Mind Probe are basically perks. Furthermore, you can drop a few hundred points in skills without really affecting the value of the character.

Sorry, that's a non-issue. Points are an imaginary currency that the GM can give out however they need. I've seen LogST works much better for keeping the values low, and the GM can work from there.

Originally Posted by naloth

I did it in a hurry, it should be LogDR 39 for 280 or LogDR 34 for 180. I often lower HP if I don't want things to last a long time. For Superman, the Hulk, or Thor tanks are "mooks" just like thugs are mooks for Spidey or Cap. If you want to grind, you can play a video game. Everyone else doesn't have to sit around.

Give Hero a read and get in a group that plays it to give it a shot. You'll learn a lot about GURPS by doing that.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

I recommend it. It will help you put things in perspective.

Seems like a bit of a waste to run another game to prove what I already do works well for what I want.

Perhaps you should try what I've suggested and run for years before suggesting hypothetical issues?

However, unless you're going to completely revamp all combat damage and be prepared for some very hinky results

First off, GURPS isn't 100% simulation now. Second, there's usually at least one if not more threads complaining about something someone already finds "hinky" in the existing system (realistic max attributes today? running distance the other day?). Finally, some of what you might consider "hinky" might be reasonably in-genre cinematic. For example, should Cap have been red-misted by Thanos? Probably, but it certainly doesn't fit very well.

I focus more on lower-levels of DR and higher levels of IT:DR.

Equipment isn't created that way so you still have a conversion. It also tends to produce similar hinky results with rapid fire attacks that can chip down HP faster than single powerful attack. There's nothing like IT:DR/100 getting pin pricked for 1 point of HP per attack regardless of how powerful it is.

Sorry, that's a non-issue. Points are an imaginary currency that the GM can give out however they need.

If the GM ignoring costs and totals why play with points at all? We discuss point value as a relative balance between what else you could buy. For that concepts like diminishing returns, alternative builds, and "what else would I buy" are very relevant.

Not sure why you are pushing Heroes so hard. I've been posting and writing about my various GURPS Supers games on this board and it's predecessor for over the last 20+ years. Perhaps you should try a few more things and see if they work better than what you're doing now?

[AlexanderHowl]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

I don't think you can use a timeframe as the dispelling condition for a Permanent Affliction. You'd probably need to use the pricing for very long durations from Power Ups 4.

I can just add +15 CP for really Permanent, so it is not worth the added complexity. Anyway, the point is that paying 115 CP for a counter to 800+ CP worth of threat is a really good deal.

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I can just add +15 CP for really Permanent, so it is not worth the added complexity. Anyway, the point is that paying 115 CP for a counter to 800+ CP worth of threat is a really good deal.

It's not really any more complex, you just need to add Fixed Duration, +0% and change Permanent, +150%, to Extended Duration x10000, +160% (if you round) or x30000, +180% (if you round up). That give you a duration of 21 days or 63 days (capped, presumably).

It's not really that effective a counter, anyway, at least not on its own. You need at least 5 or 6 levels of Will to have any chance, and some way to prevent yourself from being killed in the meantime. And some enemies will be straight-up immune.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

It's not really that effective a counter, anyway, at least not on its own. You need at least 5 or 6 levels of Will to have any chance, and some way to prevent yourself from being killed in the meantime. And some enemies will be straight-up immune.

It's probably better to go with a Side Effect on IA anyway.

IA 8d cr (Cosmic: Ignores DR +300%; Heart Attack +300%) [280]. If hit, this inflicts an average of 28 damage, or enough to force a HT-14 roll vs immediate death. IT:DR protects from injury but Side Effect is based on damage. You can make it a touch cheaper by going with Toxic, but then ItMH protects. Pi- would work, though, but I can't recall the cost off the top of my head for that as a base (3/lvl?).

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by naloth

It's probably better to go with a Side Effect on IA anyway.

IA 8d cr (Cosmic: Ignores DR +300%; Heart Attack +300%) [280]. If hit, this inflicts an average of 28 damage, or enough to force a HT-14 roll vs immediate death. IT:DR protects from injury but Side Effect is based on damage. You can make it a touch cheaper by going with Toxic, but then ItMH protects. Pi- would work, though, but I can't recall the cost off the top of my head for that as a base (3/lvl?).

Pi- would be cheapest I think.
Small Piercing Attack 8d (Ignores DR, +300%, Heart Attack, +300%, No Wounding, -50%, [Power Modifier], -10%) [154] should work as well as your version for cheaper.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

Pi- would be cheapest I think.
Small Piercing Attack 8d (Ignores DR, +300%, Heart Attack, +300%, No Wounding, -50%, [Power Modifier], -10%) [154] should work as well as your version for cheaper.

Sure, if you go no wounding you might as well remove Blunt Trauma and Knockback as well (which are surprisingly not included in No Wounding).

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by naloth

Sure, if you go no wounding you might as well remove Blunt Trauma and Knockback as well (which are surprisingly not included in No Wounding).

Not knockback (piercing attacks don't get any by default anyway), but yeah, NBT can shave it down to [149].

[naloth]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

Not knockback (piercing attacks don't get any by default anyway), but yeah, NBT can shave it down to [149].

Yes, and even though it's more than above, it's much more reliable than trying to win a Malediction roll.

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by naloth

Yes, and even though it's more than above, it's much more reliable than trying to win a Malediction roll.

It's right on par with the Affliction + 10 levels of Will. Probably about equal in utility at that point.