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Old 02-08-2013, 10:57 AM   #41
Kromm
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Default Re: Why doesn't GURPS do Superheroes well?

Part of the issue, I think, is that people aren't separating "genre" from "mode of play" very well. I would assert the following:
GURPS is a perfectly good generic game. It handles all genres moderately well. It does what it says on the tin.

GURPS is not an especially good transmodal game. It goes for a GM-refereed, rules-centric play style that appeals to realism. Then again, it doesn't promise anything different . . . it outright states that it's a Rule Zero, GM-and-rulebook game built on realistic assumptions.
Then we look at what "supers" is. Hint: It isn't a genre. It's a storytelling style that could be used in any genre . . . you can have pulp action supers, police detective supers, sci-fi supers, etc. The salient features are that the universe conforms to the heroes' abilities, not vice versa, and that drama trumps realism. In a game, that would be a style of play, one where players set the limits on their abilities, bound only by the rules of drama, and the GM is there to provide opposition, not judgment. Which isn't really what GURPS is good at.

So yeah, GURPS probably does that badly. Which isn't reason not to try, but something to consider.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:10 AM   #42
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Default Re: Why doesn't GURPS do Superheroes well?

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
GURPS is not an especially good transmodal game.
There are no better transmodal games, are there?

If so, it seems a bit harsh criticizing GURPS for not being an especially good transmodal game.

I would say that it is the best transmodal game.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:15 AM   #43
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Default Re: Why doesn't GURPS do Superheroes well?

Back in the 3e days, some of the most fun I had was playing without a character point limit. It opened people's creativity in a huge way. Suddenly instead of trying to munchkin (what would be the point?) everyone tried to make a cool character that was fun to play. This would seem to be the way to go for a good supers game.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:15 AM   #44
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Default Re: Why doesn't GURPS do Superheroes well?

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
In a game, that would be a style of play, one where players set the limits on their abilities, bound only by the rules of drama, and the GM is there to provide opposition, not judgment. Which isn't really what GURPS is good at.
I dunno. I've had good experiences with using the Ultrapower advantage and associated rules to handle instances of "bound only by the rules of drama". (I've used it as the core power for characters before, with their actual powers alt'd off of Ultrapower in a similar fashion to how Divine Favor does it.)
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:17 AM   #45
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Default Re: Why doesn't GURPS do Superheroes well?

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Part of the issue, I think, is that people aren't separating "genre" from "mode of play" very well. I would assert the following:[INDENT]GURPS is a perfectly good generic game. It handles all genres moderately well. It does what it says on the tin.
<snip>
The salient features are that the universe conforms to the heroes' abilities, not vice versa, and that drama trumps realism. In a game, that would be a style of play, one where players set the limits on their abilities, bound only by the rules of drama, and the GM is there to provide opposition, not judgment. Which isn't really what GURPS is good at.
I can't help but think of the various Supers-y (genre) games on my shelf that seem to have the classic dungeon-fantasy type mode of play in mind, rather than the supers ones. And which I generally think aren't very good Supers games, which when I think about it is probably directly related to that mode-mismatch.

I ID'd a while ago that I can't GM supers-mode games; changing mode is in some ways significantly harder than changing rules or genre. "Genre expectations" are often actually from the mode of play, and one of the places you get conflict at the table if people had differing expectations going into it.

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
So yeah, GURPS probably does that badly. Which isn't reason not to try, but something to consider.
We had a go at it and didn't do too badly until I was forced to admit that I really wasn't equipped to GM a supers game ;) To do it in GURPS takes a group that's willing to co-operate on that goal.

That said, gaming really takes a group that's willing to co-operate, so.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:20 AM   #46
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Default Re: Why doesn't GURPS do Superheroes well?

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Consider for a moment that just about all of us have access to loads of other systems. You can get GURPS to do Supers, but the real question is "is there a system better suited to what we want?"
I want the GURPS tweaks to handle "Supers" in its various different flavors.

I don't want to learn a whole new system complex enough to handle super abilities.

SJG needs to sell me a new PDF already. :p
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:22 AM   #47
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Default Re: Why doesn't GURPS do Superheroes well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Part of the issue, I think, is that people aren't separating "genre" from "mode of play" very well. I would assert the following:
GURPS is a perfectly good generic game. It handles all genres moderately well. It does what it says on the tin.
GURPS is not an especially good transmodal game. It goes for a GM-refereed, rules-centric play style that appeals to realism.
You do realize that those two statements contradict one another? Realism is most certainly a genre. Also, I would assert that the problems with GURPS and Supers have very little to do with realism per se, they have to do with pricing.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:31 AM   #48
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Default Re: Why doesn't GURPS do Superheroes well?

I found that if the GM basically builds a "Kewl Powers" book for players to pick from while building characters, fairly high powered Supers works just fine. If the GM sees GURPS abilities that need tweaks to be balanced in the campaign, this lets him do it, AND saves players time building characters...

But it costs a hell of a lot of GM time. The worked example books like Psi Powers are super valuable to me for exactly this reason. A worked example book that handled other powers would be very welcome, if only to steal ideas from.

The barrier to ME writing something like that is, as for many, the high standard GURPS holds its authors to. But now that I have a long list of prebuilt powers, the campaign itself flows pretty smoothly. ESPECIALLY if you enforce Powers and what abilities can fit in a particular origin/power modifier. That helps keep huge point totals from creating all generalists.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:31 AM   #49
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Default Re: Why doesn't GURPS do Superheroes well?

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You do realize that those two statements contradict one another? Realism is most certainly a genre.
Actually, I don't think that's correct. There is a genre that could be called "realistic fiction"—well, actually, there are sort of two of them: literary fiction and bestseller fiction. But realism is a broader category than that. There are "genres" in the conventional sense that are realistic—war stories, hardboiled detective stories, technothrillers—and there are realistic treatments of the fantastic genres—low fantasy, streetlevel supers, cyberpunk, social commentary sf.

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Old 02-08-2013, 11:35 AM   #50
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Default Re: Why doesn't GURPS do Superheroes well?

OK that got me to look as I have a different idea of the word genre.

genre  
noun
1.
a class or category of artistic endeavor having a particular form, content, technique, or the like: the genre of epic poetry; the genre of symphonic music.
2.
Fine Arts.
a.
paintings in which scenes of everyday life form the subject matter.
b.
a realistic style of painting using such subject matter.
3.
genus; kind; sort; style.
adjective
4.
Fine Arts. of or pertaining to genre.
5.
of or pertaining to a distinctive literary type.

To me a setting is a specific world or framework, including charecters and such.
A Genre is broader and more about style.
For example Space Opera is a style where the Heroes are larger then life and typically its about good vs. evil (or at least bad).
Supers is like Space Opera but the idea is that drama and the story trump realisim.
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