[Technical Grappling] [Martial Arts] Effects of Bad Grip . . .

[vicky_molokh]

Greetings, all!

Searching through TG, I can't find any clarifications regarding the effects of Bad Grip in the expanded system.

Since we're now (since MA) allowed bite-grapples, does Bad Grip affect jaw grapples? The text of the advantage seems to imply that yes, since it is not dependent on the limbs used in a grapple, but, well, it seems strange to say yes.

Is the Bad Grip penalty cumulative with the -2 DX to grapple with legs? If yes, this means that a raccoon has a harder time establishing a grapple than a cat does. If not, then it seems that anyone with Bad Grip is supposed to always try grappling with legs whenever he can afford to (i.e. when already on the ground etc.).

Another very non-obvious thing is that someone with Bad Grip can logically apply CP by lying on top of a downed opponent without a penalty to the attack roll, since even those with NFM can do that. Would've been nice to see that (and other interesting examples) highlighted more. (Seems like potential material for future example fights on Gaming Ballistic.)

Thanks in advance!

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Greetings, all!

Searching through TG, I can't find any clarifications regarding the effects of Bad Grip in the expanded system.

The Disad on p. B123 seems to imply it only applies to hands, not jaws. So I'd say no, it doesn't apply to a bite. Another way to express Bad Grip would seem to be Clumsy Grip or Awkward grip, since the only impact is a skill penalty.

So, no complicated changes with TG; it just lowers your ability to achieve a grapple by lowering skills. The implications of that beyond the obvious are that it should impose a penalty to Parry when defending against attacks to break free, -1 per level of Bad Grip. It would likely also impact your Training Bonus, lowering your relative skill level and therefore your CP awards.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

The Disad on p. B123 seems to imply it only applies to hands, not jaws. So I'd say no, it doesn't apply to a bite. Another way to express Bad Grip would seem to be Clumsy Grip or Awkward grip, since the only impact is a skill penalty.

Gotcha.

Side observation: that ruling means that fellas with Extra Mouths are in for a minor win. ^_^

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

So, no complicated changes with TG; it just lowers your ability to achieve a grapple by lowering skills. The implications of that beyond the obvious are that it should impose a penalty to Parry when defending against attacks to break free, -1 per level of Bad Grip. It would likely also impact your Training Bonus, lowering your relative skill level and therefore your CP awards.

But does it stack with the -2 for grappling with legs (or legs and arms with the interpretation that adding legs reduces grappling DX by 2)? I'm curious about the cat-vs.-raccoon-vs.-monkey-vs.-smallhuman-vs.-kumo comparisons.

I didn't think of it modifying Relative Skill Levels too instead of just providing a penalty to the rolls. Seems harsh for [-5/level].

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Gotcha.

Side observation: that ruling means that fellas with Extra Mouths are in for a minor win. ^_^

But does it stack with the -2 for grappling with legs (or legs and arms with the interpretation that adding legs reduces grappling DX by 2)? I'm curious about the cat-vs.-raccoon-vs.-monkey-vs.-smallhuman-vs.-kumo comparisons.

I didn't think of it modifying Relative Skill Levels too instead of just providing a penalty to the rolls. Seems harsh for [-5/level].

You seemed to have been fishing for stuff beyond the obvious "just take the DX penalty," the simplicity of which is likely why it was cut in editing.

Also, I talked it over with Kromm, and my own interpretation of "adding legs to arms of -2" which was in contradiction to what I wrote was a mistake. The -2 is for using legs ONLY. The arms (or even a single arm) helps guide the legs.

In terms of point cost, again: my mission was not to recost GURPS stuff. it never was. It never will be unless I write an article on it for an Alternate GURPS Pyramid issue that I'd expect Steven to reject.