Character Development with Points Question

Koningkrush · 07-28-2015, 10:36 PM

I'm a bit confused on how character points work in GURPS when it comes to in game development.

Do you need to use character points for everything that would improve your character permanently? Say I walked into a clinic and paid a bunch of money to genetically engineer a new physical advantage. Would I have to pay character points in addition to the cost of the procedure, or would I only have to pay the monetary value in game?

I'm assuming if you need character points in addition, it's meant to limit how fast a character can develop in one session. A multimillionaire could get a 100 points of free advantages in a high TL society.

If this is how it is, is it the same with disadvantages? If I blow the head off of my enemy, does his twin brother come after me if I don't immediately buy off the disadvantage with character points?

Nereidalbel · 07-28-2015, 10:38 PM

Yes, yes, and yes. Nearly everything that would improve your point total requires you to spend those points to keep it. In the case of Enemy, you can immediately spend points to reduce or remove the Enemy disadvantage, or else you end up rolling for Enemy next session.

ArchonShiva · 07-28-2015, 11:09 PM

I would tend to temper this answer with "anything that modifies your point value changes your point value". There can be ways to improve that you don't pay for with earned points, per the GM's campaign rules.

The classic example is time use giving skill points without spending earned cp, or gaining a reputation due to deeds, especially if it affects the entire party.

For example, you do something for an NPC, and now he owes you a favor. Do you need to add a Favor on your character sheet? Do you need to pay for it from earned cp? Will your point total decrease when you use it?

The answers to each of these questions can vary a bit.

trooper6 · 07-28-2015, 11:20 PM

Well the answer to your questions about Advantages is dependent on the GM to some extent.

If you are talking about body mods, like cyberwear, there is more than one options. (this is talked about on B294).
You can charge points, you can charge money...the old cyberpunk book said you could make them do both (or was it Cthulhupunk?)

Here is how I do it in my games. The player has the option of paying for points...or not.

If they pay points then they get what they want and I won't take it away from them or mess with them in any way. They've paid points for it, it is officially theirs.

They don't pay points for it? Well, now...things can get interesting. If you didn't pay points there is no guarantee you will keep the thing. There is no guarantee that the thing does only what you think it does. There is no guarantee there isn't some secret disad balancing out that "free" advantage. The player always pays in one way or another.

That multimillionaire who wants to get 100pts of free advantages with cash...well...they might pick up those advantages...but they won't be free. Mua-ha-ha-ha! Also, the books recommend being very serious about recovery times and complications if they don't pay points...and that will definitely be happening. Maybe also some pain killer addictions. Maybe some chronic pain. Maybe the doctor added a tracking device. Who knows what exciting things I can do to balance out those points.

It is my favorite thing! Most players just pay the points. I do let players go into point debt if they get a special windfall and don't have the points right then and there.

As for disads, if you Kill you Enemy without paying off the Disad...maybe his twin brother shows up. Or maybe you become wanted by the police. I as GM decide how those points end up being made up. Maybe you end up having nightmares after killing him. Or you are haunted. I'll come up with something good. Here I also let people pay off the Disad in chunks if it makes sense. Like that Enemy...you have some points, but not enough to buy it off outright? Well, maybe the appearance frequency gets reduced. That sort of thing.

So...pay the points...or I get creative.

~~evileeyore~~ · 07-28-2015, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchonShiva

The classic example is time use giving skill points without spending earned cp...

As a GM I don;t do traditional Time Use... I just give them some Cp, roughly equal to what they would have gotten.

Quote:

...or gaining a reputation due to deeds, especially if it affects the entire party.

As that is a reward, I give them the CP to pay for it.

Quote:

For example, you do something for an NPC, and now he owes you a favor. Do you need to add a Favor on your character sheet? Do you need to pay for it from earned cp? Will your point total decrease when you use it?

For Favors... ie "1 use Allies, Contacts, Patrons, etc" I keep them listed separately. The Players still need to write it down so they won't forget it, but I don't charge them for it. I also don't usually bother setting a CP amount, just a rough "this is how much favor is owed".

Captain Joy · 07-28-2015, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchonShiva

I would tend to temper this answer with "anything that modifies your point value changes your point value". There can be ways to improve that you don't pay for with earned points, per the GM's campaign rules.

The classic example is time use giving skill points without spending earned cp, or gaining a reputation due to deeds, especially if it affects the entire party.

For example, you do something for an NPC, and now he owes you a favor. Do you need to add a Favor on your character sheet? Do you need to pay for it from earned cp? Will your point total decrease when you use it?

The answers to each of these questions can vary a bit.

Word.

My belief is that the GM allowing/insisting a player spend earned character points on some ability should protect the player somewhat from GM fiat. If the GM gifts you with the ability, then you can put it on your character sheet, and your point value will go up, but the GM is well within their rights to deprive you of that ability with no obligation to compensate you for the loss.

EDIT: Ninjaed by trooper6.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trooper6

If they pay points then they get what they want and I won't take it away from them or mess with them in any way. They've paid points for it, it is officially theirs.

They don't pay points for it? Well, now...things can get interesting. If you didn't pay points there is no guarantee you will keep the thing. There is no guarantee that the thing does only what you think it does. There is no guarantee there isn't some secret disad balancing out that "free" advantage. The player always pays in one way or another.

…

So...pay the points...or I get creative.

trooper6 · 07-28-2015, 11:39 PM

I want to add that I did have a few players purposefully not spend points on some of their Cyberwear, or not pay points to get rid of their killed enemies, because they really enjoyed seeing what I would come up with to balance the scales.

Lord Azagthoth · 07-28-2015, 11:52 PM

My players can spend CP earned for playing the scenarios freely on skills or buying off the limitations on advantages or increase the Resistance rolls of disavantages.

Only during an intermezzo (mostly after a Saga has ended) they may spend some extra CP on attributes.

I also have a GM CP pool which I use for scenario related features. The character's CP does not change but the (dis)advantage is completely in my control (so no random appearance of enemies, allies, etc.). I decide whether something happens or not. If the player want control over it, he has to pay for it, or his CP will drop in case of disadvantages.

I don't use the Time Spent rules or any of the learning rules from BS. I think it depend too much on IQ score and tends to be unfair for players who have a less intelligent character.

trooper6 · 07-28-2015, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Azagthoth

I also have a GM CP pool which I use for scenario related features. The character's CP does not change but the (dis)advantage is completely in my control (so no random appearance of enemies, allies, etc.). I decide whether something happens or not. If the player want control over it, he has to pay for it, or his CP will drop in case of disadvantages.

Can you explain your GM CP pool in more detail? It seems interesting, but I don't quite understand how it works.

Koningkrush · 07-29-2015, 12:20 AM

I found the section in the Basic Set where it talks about modification and development.
One solution it gives is that if using money is allowed to gain advantages or traits, then harsh recovery rules and potential complications should be involved. The benefit comes with risk, basically.
However, what if a character is a machine? I can't see much risk in installing a new form of technology or interface compared to a surgical procedure on a living thing. The worst I could think of happening is damage to a component which would only require simple replacement or repair.

07-28-2015, 10:36 PM	#1
Koningkrush Join Date: Dec 2014	Character Development with Points Question I'm a bit confused on how character points work in GURPS when it comes to in game development. Do you need to use character points for everything that would improve your character permanently? Say I walked into a clinic and paid a bunch of money to genetically engineer a new physical advantage. Would I have to pay character points in addition to the cost of the procedure, or would I only have to pay the monetary value in game? I'm assuming if you need character points in addition, it's meant to limit how fast a character can develop in one session. A multimillionaire could get a 100 points of free advantages in a high TL society. If this is how it is, is it the same with disadvantages? If I blow the head off of my enemy, does his twin brother come after me if I don't immediately buy off the disadvantage with character points?

07-28-2015, 10:38 PM	#2
Nereidalbel Join Date: May 2013 Location: Ellicott City, MD	Re: Character Development with Points Question Yes, yes, and yes. Nearly everything that would improve your point total requires you to spend those points to keep it. In the case of Enemy, you can immediately spend points to reduce or remove the Enemy disadvantage, or else you end up rolling for Enemy next session.

07-28-2015, 11:09 PM	#3
ArchonShiva Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Montréal, Québec	Re: Character Development with Points Question I would tend to temper this answer with "anything that modifies your point value changes your point value". There can be ways to improve that you don't pay for with earned points, per the GM's campaign rules. The classic example is time use giving skill points without spending earned cp, or gaining a reputation due to deeds, especially if it affects the entire party. For example, you do something for an NPC, and now he owes you a favor. Do you need to add a Favor on your character sheet? Do you need to pay for it from earned cp? Will your point total decrease when you use it? The answers to each of these questions can vary a bit.

07-28-2015, 11:20 PM	#4
trooper6 Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Medford, MA	Re: Character Development with Points Question Well the answer to your questions about Advantages is dependent on the GM to some extent. If you are talking about body mods, like cyberwear, there is more than one options. (this is talked about on B294). You can charge points, you can charge money...the old cyberpunk book said you could make them do both (or was it Cthulhupunk?) Here is how I do it in my games. The player has the option of paying for points...or not. If they pay points then they get what they want and I won't take it away from them or mess with them in any way. They've paid points for it, it is officially theirs. They don't pay points for it? Well, now...things can get interesting. If you didn't pay points there is no guarantee you will keep the thing. There is no guarantee that the thing does only what you think it does. There is no guarantee there isn't some secret disad balancing out that "free" advantage. The player always pays in one way or another. That multimillionaire who wants to get 100pts of free advantages with cash...well...they might pick up those advantages...but they won't be free. Mua-ha-ha-ha! Also, the books recommend being very serious about recovery times and complications if they don't pay points...and that will definitely be happening. Maybe also some pain killer addictions. Maybe some chronic pain. Maybe the doctor added a tracking device. Who knows what exciting things I can do to balance out those points. It is my favorite thing! Most players just pay the points. I do let players go into point debt if they get a special windfall and don't have the points right then and there. As for disads, if you Kill you Enemy without paying off the Disad...maybe his twin brother shows up. Or maybe you become wanted by the police. I as GM decide how those points end up being made up. Maybe you end up having nightmares after killing him. Or you are haunted. I'll come up with something good. Here I also let people pay off the Disad in chunks if it makes sense. Like that Enemy...you have some points, but not enough to buy it off outright? Well, maybe the appearance frequency gets reduced. That sort of thing. So...pay the points...or I get creative. Last edited by trooper6; 07-28-2015 at 11:24 PM.

07-28-2015, 11:39 PM	#7
trooper6 Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Medford, MA	Re: Character Development with Points Question I want to add that I did have a few players purposefully not spend points on some of their Cyberwear, or not pay points to get rid of their killed enemies, because they really enjoyed seeing what I would come up with to balance the scales.

07-28-2015, 11:52 PM	#8
Lord Azagthoth Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Helmouth, The Netherlands	Re: Character Development with Points Question My players can spend CP earned for playing the scenarios freely on skills or buying off the limitations on advantages or increase the Resistance rolls of disavantages. Only during an intermezzo (mostly after a Saga has ended) they may spend some extra CP on attributes. I also have a GM CP pool which I use for scenario related features. The character's CP does not change but the (dis)advantage is completely in my control (so no random appearance of enemies, allies, etc.). I decide whether something happens or not. If the player want control over it, he has to pay for it, or his CP will drop in case of disadvantages. I don't use the Time Spent rules or any of the learning rules from BS. I think it depend too much on IQ score and tends to be unfair for players who have a less intelligent character. __________________ May the Force be with us all Dark Lord Azagthoth Star Wars - TRPG

07-29-2015, 12:20 AM	#10
Koningkrush Join Date: Dec 2014	Re: Character Development with Points Question I found the section in the Basic Set where it talks about modification and development. One solution it gives is that if using money is allowed to gain advantages or traits, then harsh recovery rules and potential complications should be involved. The benefit comes with risk, basically. However, what if a character is a machine? I can't see much risk in installing a new form of technology or interface compared to a surgical procedure on a living thing. The worst I could think of happening is damage to a component which would only require simple replacement or repair.