GURPS MAGIC: Day in the life of a spell inventor...

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by hal

In case anyone wonders...

"Why aren't you utilizing assistants"?

The answer is simple actually...

Each assistant requires a skill of 20+ in the skills required.

That means that you will need to have at least give "Masters of Thaumatology" working together in an effort to improve your conceptualization roll.

Remember - we're talking about ordinary individuals who will have to work together to research spells. A beginning "professional level researcher" with a skill of 12 (the very definition of professional level skill) - will be largely incapable of researching ANY spell with a relatively high prerequisite count. Asssitants requiring a skill of 20? Five of them working together to gain a +4 bonus? Wowsa.

"Professional" is not exactly someone that is driving science throught - or "science magic".

12 skill is the guy that works with the skill at hand - plumbers, carpenters, painters.

But no scientist will be a researcher in their field with just 12 skill. For that, you need at least 14, who would be in the category of experts.

Remember, skill between 8 to 13 is "professional" level - meaning people who have that skill as a PROFESSION. Do you seriously believe thou that a scientist would have "chemistry 8" or "physics 8"? No they would not. This would be the rating of a student.

Real researchers will be at the range of "experts", between 14 to 19. That's the range where you need to look out for most of your Thaumatological researchers.

And most spells SHOULD be developed by guys in that range. The exception are the Masters (Thaumatology 20-25) who will be a few dozens in the entire world at most, but those are the guys advancing the high magical theories and creating the hardest of the spells - like for example, those would be the ones responsible for creating the enchantment versions of spells with prerequisite counts of 23 (the highest there is in Magic that I can remember). Considering that enchanting is a further -13, that gives a final -36 modifier to try it... Which I would be more than happy to leave at the hands of the Thaumatological Master Sages.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by hal

"On a success, proceed to the next step. On a failure, the inventor makes no breakthrough but may try again the next day at no additional penalty. On a critical failure, the inventor comes up with a “flawed theory” that looks good but that will never work in practice – go on to the next step, but note that it is doomed to failure."

This can be found on page 473 GURPS BASIC SET: CAMPAIGNS, directly above the paragraph titled "Prototype".

Ah that explains it, I was only looking at the added notes for magic inventions not the basic rules for inventions/prototypes, it'd make sense to still apply those except where specifically told not to.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

To defend the crummy RAW, consider that 1 CP is considered to be 200 hours of study, etc. under a teacher or 400 hours of self-study.

A critical failure which results in 5-10 weeks of wasted effort doesn't seem quite as bad as losing 1 CP, although they are equivalent.

I really think the easiest way around this is for spell inventors to simply take a single point of Super Memorization (8 points can be reduced to 2 points w/ -75% of limitations) so you can only temporarily invest that character point on those flubs.

Spells Only -20% / Limited Use once per day day -40% / Magical -10% / Requires Will Roll -5% = you're already there.

Pretty sure the "You can only memorize abilities if you have a suitable reference
work (book, film, tape, etc.)." would be covered by your concept phase efforts (you'd be producing notes and stuff in that time)

Heck if you're willing to five levels of Take Extra Time for -50% you could even add in Reliable +10 +50% and get +10 skill in whatever spell you've put that point into, going by what Powers 64 says the impact of Talent on Natural Abilities is.

It actually seems like you'd get to add your Magery bonus to any skills you got this way, though I don't know if that would be double the magery bonus for spells, as that might be considered double-counting.

Originally Posted by KarlKost

No you cant. You can have a concept in a day. To have a spell you still need to finish the prototype.

Generally yes, unless the inventor had the Gadgeteer advantage, which allows you to crank stuff out in less time:

Time Required: This is unchanged. However, the times under New Inventions
assume an eight-hour day, which might not be enough for a cinematic gadgeteer! If the inventor pulls long shifts, he must make daily HT rolls as described under Long Tasks (p. 346).

So instead of two consecutive 8-hour work days for concept+prototype you might pull a 16-hour day to get both done in a single day.

Originally Posted by KarlKost

So, this makes it clear that the Concept roll is NOT a cerimonial casting. And neither could it be, and it would be weird if it were, since you are NOT casting a spell, you're just designing an idea for it, and it aint even a spell-skill that you roll, but Thaumatology.

The Prototype however IS indeed a spell casting, which by the boldened part makes it crystal clear that yes, you do need to spend 1CP to buy the spell-skill in order to be able to use it during the prototype phase.

So yes, you could take 1 month to create the Concept for a +5 bonus, just not for the Prototype phase.

If prototype tryout/roll is indeed ceremonial casting you could pump more energy into it to get an effective skill bonus though.

IE if you are trying to invent a 1-energy spell, you could spend 100% more energy (ie 2 energy) to get a +4 skill bonus.

Originally Posted by hal

it also requires that the GM permit gadgeteering in as an advantage in the first place. If the GM is happy with that, fine. If not, then that option may not be available for magic research.

Again, people can use it, and it would appear that the rules do permit it. But it also looks like an edge case.

Magic itself is an edge case, I think you need GM permission to play a wizard in the campaign, they can also choose to exclude wizards in a no-magic campaign that's purely scifi.

Originally Posted by hal

In case anyone wonders...
"Why aren't you utilizing assistants"?
The answer is simple actually...
Each assistant requires a skill of 20+ in the skills required.

Even if we had those I begin to wonder what the point would be...

M15 mentions

The normal Prototype bonuses for qualified assistants apply,
though the ceremonial magic penalties for assistants typically offset them.

B474 "+1 per assistant with skill 20+ in one of the skills required"

Given that the penalty (-1 per assistant) is equal to the largest possible bonus you could receive, it seems like you don't get a bonus at all to the prototype roll.

This doesn't seem like "typically" it seems like "always".

- -

The "the ceremonial magic penalties for assistants" mentioned on M15 does not actually exist though - B238 does not list any. The -1 per assistant penalty only exists for a subset of ceremonial magic - from Quick and Dirty Enchantment (QADE)

Given that it seems to be borrowing rules from Quick and Dirty Enchantment (per the "the process is similar to enchantment") it would seem fair to allow Spell Invention to also benefit from the perk "Quick and Focused" (pg 29 of Magical Styles) which allowing buying off that penalty.

In that case, if it helped to ignore the penalty during Prototypes, then you would get a skill benefit for the skill 20+ assistants.

Without QAF the only thing assistants actually seems like it would help with is Time Required since it's "Divide time required by the number of skilled people working on the project"

The "Each attempt takes a full day." rule for magic prototypes seems non-reducable via the basic "Minimum time is always one day." rule for prototypes, but like mentioned earlier a Magic Gadgeteer is able to reduce this using the Long Tasks rules, so I don't think the 1-day minimum necessarily applies to them any longer.

This would be pretty important since spending 8 consecutive hours casting a ceremonial spell is pretty difficult, even if you benefit from decreased distractibility (will-0 instead of will-3) there should probably be increased chances of losing your concentration the longer you're doing that.

We have to keep in mind here - this does not appear to be like "Slow and Sure Enchantment" where you can take bathroom breaks - the reference to assistant penalties (which AFAIK only apply to Quick and Dirty not Slow and Sure) means that this 8-hour prototype day is like QAD where you don't get bathroom breaks.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Plane

Heck if you're willing to five levels of Take Extra Time for -50% you could even add in Reliable +10 +50% and get +10 skill in whatever spell you've put that point into, going by what Powers 64 says the impact of Talent on Natural Abilities is.

Ehh... No. You cannot put Reliable on Modular Abilities in order to gain additional skill levels granted by the Modular Ability itself.

Power Talent? Well, that's a munchikinism that I personally wouldnt allow as a GM, but RAW yes, the Talent would indeed add to ANY skills you decided to boost with the MA. But since it's at most +4, it's manageable. But Reliable doesnt work like that for MA.

You put "Requires Will Roll" right? So, that means that before swaping skills, you need to roll Will (if you fail you cant do it).

Your Reliable here would only add to this Will roll - or to your "Skill: Supermemorization" if your using "Abilities with Skills" from Powers. That's the ONLY thing that Reliable would be used for here.

It is worth noticing that Modular Abilities are somewhat poorly written. I dont think you're supposed to add enhancement or limitations to it, but rather you should build your different kinds of MA using the guidelines present on Powers.

It's kind of ridiculous to buy Cosmic MA by 2 CP apiece. There wouldnt ever be a reason to buy skills with it.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Plane

M15 mentions

The normal Prototype bonuses for qualified assistants apply,
though the ceremonial magic penalties for assistants typically offset them.

Assistants would mostly serve to provide additional energy. Like I said, for them to have 20+ in the spell which they've only invested a single 1CP, they would need at least IQ19/20 and Magery 3 for being electable for the bonus. That's a pretty absurd proposition to have.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

Ehh... No. You cannot put Reliable on Modular Abilities in order to gain additional skill levels granted by the Modular Ability itself.

I don't see anything under Modular Abilities banning Reliable enhancement...

Originally Posted by KarlKost

Power Talent? Well, that's a munchikinism that I personally wouldnt allow as a GM, but RAW yes, the Talent would indeed add to ANY skills you decided to boost with the MA. But since it's at most +4, it's manageable. But Reliable doesnt work like that for MA.

Reliable bonuses apply in every context that Talent bonuses would.

I did find a possible "out" for my interpretation though: "Talent adds to all rolls to use any of the advantages granted by Modular Abilities" might not apply to skills if you take a "skill points are not technically advantages" interpretation.

I think I've seen that contrast made before, though I can't remember where.

Originally Posted by KarlKost

You put "Requires Will Roll" right? So, that means that before swaping skills, you need to roll Will (if you fail you cant do it).

It means you'd need to spend another attempt (and 1 FP) which normally takes just 1 second, though with Takes Extra Time it would be more time per attempt.

Originally Posted by KarlKost

Your Reliable here would only add to this Will roll - or to your "Skill: Supermemorization" if your using "Abilities with Skills" from Powers. That's the ONLY thing that Reliable would be used for here.

Powers 109 "This works exactly like Talent, and can’t affect anything that Talent wouldn’t affect. It’s cumulative with Talent, where applicable"

Originally Posted by KarlKost

It is worth noticing that Modular Abilities are somewhat poorly written. I dont think you're supposed to add enhancement or limitations to it, but rather you should build your different kinds of MA using the guidelines present on Powers.

Powers encourages adding enhancements and limitations to it.

It even talks about adding certain modifiers twice, like you could have "Costs Fatigue" on Modular Abilities (spend 1 FP to rearrange your points) AND also have Costs Fatigue on a power you build using those points (spend 1 FP to shoot your Burning Attack)

Originally Posted by KarlKost

It's kind of ridiculous to buy Cosmic MA by 2 CP apiece. There wouldnt ever be a reason to buy skills with it.

If you could purchase Cosmic Power at -80% (2cp per 1cp) it does largely take the place of investing in any other advantage or skill which you did not need immediate use of in short notice.

It's not the ideal way to get Warp that you'd need for split-second dodging (you don't have time to rearrange the points) or for a skill in parrying (for when you get surprise attack) but for stuff that already has big time investments (crafting, casting giant spells) it's definitely the most efficient way to spend character points.

That's probably why it's Exotic and GMs should be careful in handing out Cosmic Power. I could see limiting the levels, requiring an unusual background to buy it, etc to reel in the potential problems it creates.

If you were an enchanter it'd definitely be cheaper to take this approach than in spending skill points permanently in your enchantment skills.

The +100% enhancement needed to get physical traits only does so much to hinder it, you can still offset that with lots of limitations (like limited use, prep time required) which you can still strategically work around, though that's usually going to be with stuff like Takes Extra Time which prevents rapid reassignment of your physical traits.

I think that's how villains like Amazo tend to get defeated - yeah they could reassigne their Cosmic Power to duplicate all your powers, but if you were attacking them from all sides with different ways, they couldn't rapidly change which power they were mimicing quickly enough. You see a great example of this in Young Justice episode 5 "schooled" where after the JL has such a tough time with Amazo, the sidekicks have a way easier time because they use better tactics (having more experience working in tight coordination than the JL does, presumably)

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Plane

I think that's how villains like Amazo tend to get defeated - yeah they could reassigne their Cosmic Power to duplicate all your powers, but if you were attacking them from all sides with different ways, they couldn't rapidly change which power they were mimicing quickly enough. You see a great example of this in Young Justice episode 5 "schooled" where after the JL has such a tough time with Amazo, the sidekicks have a way easier time because they use better tactics (having more experience working in tight coordination than the JL does, presumably)

I think what Amazo has is more of a Neutralize with Power Theft, Permanent +300%, Cosmic +300%, Malediction and Ranged and a new Limitation (Power Theft Only), for an ability that is absolutely unsuitable to be allowed to players EVER because it allows you to permanently copy ANY and ALL abilities of anyone that you look at (just like Amazo do).

It aint MA

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by hal

Hi Pursuivant,
While you can argue the case that the +5 bonus should apply, I think myself, it is a major stretch.

I agree. Just playing devil's advocate and thinking of the sophistry a player might try on the GM. Depending on the campaign and the GM's mood, it might just work. After all, as my cats remind me, it never hurts to ask. . .

Originally Posted by hal

While in theory - that fits the rules as they are now - that does not fit the rules for when GURPS MAGIC was first published. These rules as written have to be independent of ANYTHING that came after, and work only with the rules as presented in GURPS MAGIC when it was first published.

Exhibit 867 as to why GURPS Magic is probably the worst book in the GURPS 4E lineup, being little more than slapping GURPS 3E Magic and Grimoire together and making superficial changes to make the spells work with GURPS 4E.

Most of Kromm's notes on the 3E versions of the spells were ignored, as were all the really good fan-provided fixes for problem spells.

While your efforts to make sense of spell invention using GURPS Magic are heroic, I think they're doomed due to ill-considered game design and the rush to get the product out the door.

Originally Posted by hal

Each attempt at invention is based on the time frame of 1 day. The conceptualization takes one day. The implementation of the concept - takes one day.

Again, playing devil's advocate. Burning 1 CP in order to save 5-10 weeks of effort is a huge convenience for a mage in a hurry.

Inventing a new spell in just a day is highly appropriate, at least for some campaign settings.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Again, playing devil's advocate. Burning 1 CP in order to save 5-10 weeks of effort is a huge convenience for a mage in a hurry.

Inventing a new spell in just a day is highly appropriate, at least for some campaign settings.

That whole "spend 1 CP" doesnt make sense in a realistic frame anyway, just as a game mechanics that doesnt make much sense.

I'll explain: there's basically 2 ways for you to learn new tricks, or to "increase your CP account".

The first is study/training: you read and re-read the books, take notes or otherwise keep doing repetitive movements until your "muscular memory" fixed them. This can be memorizing all the equations of quantum mechanics, all the neurological interactions of the brain, or constantly playing the same songs in a guitar over and over again until your fingers become able to "find their way", or keep cutting wood over and over again until your carpentry works greatly improve because your hands now just do it in auto pilot, or keep shooting over and over again in a shooting range until your hands learn to direct the rifle to the mark.

In essence, it's a measure of neural connections formed over time by repetitive activities that reinforce the same neural pathways.

That "method" is reflected in game mechanics as "study points".

The second mechanic for char improvement is "bonus points", given at the end of each session. Those, unlike "study points", represent points that you gain during highly stressful situations.

After all, it's one thing to make military exercizes and to train your shooting skills at and the controlled environment of a shooting range, and another totally different to fight in a real actual war.

So, going out of your safe batcave and adventuring into dirty wet dungeons filled with eldritch abominations is a sort of "baptism by fire" type of "study" or learning. You gain bonuses points because you are theoretically learning by necessity at the heat of the moment instead of in the confort of your arcane lab / library / gladiatorial school / whatever.

So it doesnt make sense anyway to simply spend bonus CP inventing spells at the confort of your lab - unless you'd claim you had the idea for the new spell as an Eureka moment while fighting the terrible Mud Queen...

It does make sense however to "spend" your bonus point that you would gain from study after the 1 Month time period to do the Concept at +5 bonus for 30x times the time thou

[Aldric]

I don't think that CP spent on the spell will end up being much of a problem.
In case you really don't want to see it wasted, I see a few possible options:
1) Turn it into a CP spent on Thaumatology, it's what the inventor has been using, so he learned from his mistakes.
2) It's spent on the Spell, so when the mage finally gets a really valid prototype, he already has a point there.
3) Use MAs. If you want a mage to invent multiple spells under the odds presented in Magic, it's not wasted.

But honestly, I don't think crit fails on a Concept rolls are ever going to be an issue. I've been going over the modifiers available and by the time they have enough raw stats to make the Prototype roll with 1 CP invested in the spell, they'll nail the Concept roll on the first try.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Aldric

I don't think that CP spent on the spell will end up being much of a problem.
In case you really don't want to see it wasted, I see a few possible options:
1) Turn it into a CP spent on Thaumatology, it's what the inventor has been using, so he learned from his mistakes.

RAW you have to spend the point on the spell you're inventing.

Originally Posted by Aldric

2) It's spent on the Spell, so when the mage finally gets a really valid prototype, he already has a point there.

That's the point of this discussion, getting to a prototype that is NOT a botched concept. If it's a good spell, there's no problem.

Originally Posted by Aldric

3) Use MAs. If you want a mage to invent multiple spells under the odds presented in Magic, it's not wasted.

Yeah, but MAs are at least cinematic; we'd have to assume that ALL spells inventors have them, which isnt realistic

Originally Posted by Aldric

But honestly, I don't think crit fails on a Concept rolls are ever going to be an issue. I've been going over the modifiers available and by the time they have enough raw stats to make the Prototype roll with 1 CP invested in the spell, they'll nail the Concept roll on the first try.

Not an issue for spells with 0 prereqs or 1 to 5 prereqs perhaps. But what about spells with 23 prereqs?

And even worse, what about creating an ENCHANTING version of a spell (further -13) that already has 23 prereqs?

We are talking about a -36 modifier here! (Althought I DO believe that in such a case the +5 bonus for "doing something similar" should fully apply, since you already know the base spell and already know how enchantment works, but it's still a long way to go)