[LT] Protective Clothing, Part 1 - Better than Armor

[DemiBenson]

The Protective Clothing section of LT (p99-100) lists a few types of clothing that provide protection better than armor - the parka, leather apron, and heavy long coat all provide DR1 (note: not DR1*) over the covered areas. Incidentally, so do shoes (DR1) but not moccasins (DR1*), and boots give DR2.

Ignoring for the moment the lack of flexible notation, the armor value of these items seems implausible to me. I simply can't imagine that a leather apron or heavy long coat could provide any protection vs crushing damage. I have no problem imagining them protecting against any other types of damage though.

Also, the heavy long coat seems like a great piece of armor - only $100, 10 lbs, DR1 and covers torso, arms, and legs. It's better than a padded cloth version ($125, 15 lbs, only DR1*). Admittedly, the TL difference could explain that, but it would be nice if that were listed somewhere. Presumably the long coat also has easier-to-hit chinks in armor, too.

Thoughts?

[Polydamas]

In practice the Long Coat would probably cover about half the legs, so its area of 200% is being compared to armour that covers 250%. Its better to match actual weights (or a good guess at them) and fit a best guess of game stats than make the game stats balanced but not have the one thing you can measure be correct. Building a thick coat as armour couldn't hurt if you feel its a game balance issue.

Shoes and boots have rigid soles; one flat DR for top and bottom is a simplification. I think that DR 1 foot armour would be lighter because it doesn't include a sole.

[Kyle Aaron]

Remember that stuff made by hand in the Iron or Middle Ages was designed to last literally years, in contrast to modern clothing. Our military leather boots, for example, we expect to last 12 months or so of day-to-day use. They expected theirs to last years with some repairs here and there. So it's a bit thicker and stiffer than modern leather.

[Bruno]

Quick check:

How is DR 1 "Better than armor"? There's a lot of armor, most of which is much better than DR 1.

If you're referring to "by weight", please go double check the errata, the clothing weights have been increased significantly (Doubled, IIRC)

[DemiBenson]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

In practice the Long Coat would probably cover about half the legs, so its area of 200% is being compared to armour that covers 250%. Its better to match actual weights (or a good guess at them) and fit a best guess of game stats than make the game stats balanced but not have the one thing you can measure be correct. Building a thick coat as armour couldn't hurt if you feel its a game balance issue.

The long coats can be dusters, and all dusters I've seen are ankle-length, so that makes it equivalent to full-length legs. They certainly would be for the amount of material included.

Even if it were only equivalent to half legs, the weight and cost comes out better than padded cloth anyways.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Quick check:

How is DR 1 "Better than armor"? There's a lot of armor, most of which is much better than DR 1.

The only armors available in the DR1 range all have the flexible mark (*), or worse (only DR0 and provide DR1 vs cutting). Protective clothing does not, even though there is a clothing item that does have it (moccasins), so we can't just assume it was left off of all clothing stat blocks for inscrutable reasons (like the Tough Skin note for animal write-ups).

Originally Posted by Bruno

If you're referring to "by weight", please go double check the errata, the clothing weights have been increased significantly (Doubled, IIRC)

I'm aware of the errata, and they don't affect any of the protective clothing stats.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by ectropy

The only armors available in the DR1 range all have the flexible mark (*), or worse (only DR0 and provide DR1 vs cutting). Protective clothing does not, even though there is a clothing item that does have it (moccasins), so we can't just assume it was left off of all clothing stat blocks for inscrutable reasons (like the Tough Skin note for animal write-ups).

It was left off to be consistent with High-Tech. Personally I'd change most of them to have DR 1* vs cutting only just like other Low-Tech clothing. The long coat is knee-length, not ankle-length.

[Celjabba]

I have handled and worn old style polar parka and old blacksmith leather apron and I believe they should protect against crushing.

They are heavy, thick, and as rigid as they can be and still allow movement.
Parka give a -1DX, and it is generous.
Apron only cover(partial) front

For the long coat, I cannot comment, but I don't believe the stats to be implausible.
I have worn a modern full length wool cape and even with the winter padding on, I would not give it dr1.
But replace the wool by thick leather, and double or triple the padding thickness, and you will have some serious protection.

Celjabba

[DanHoward]

The blacksmiths apron you describe would be medium leather in Low-Tech. Some craftsmens aprons are lighter and would be classed as Light Leather.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

It was left off to be consistent with High-Tech. Personally I'd change most of them to have DR 1* vs cutting only just like other Low-Tech clothing. The long coat is knee-length, not ankle-length.

Basic Set, p. 283 gives the leather jacket as DR1, not D1 vs. cutting only. When writing High-Tech we tried to be consistent with Basic Set. I note the * is missing in High-Tech, so that is errata, as far as High-Tech goes.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by safisher

Basic Set, p. 283 gives the leather jacket as DR1, not D1 vs. cutting only. When writing High-Tech we tried to be consistent with Basic Set. I note the * is missing in High-Tech, so that is errata, as far as High-Tech goes.

So this is chain errata?