02-09-2010, 03:36 AM | #41 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Tactical reloads of shotguns
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Without any automatic shotguns, I note.
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02-09-2010, 03:46 AM | #42 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Tactical reloads of shotguns
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Not everyone has access to the manuscript of Tactical Shooting. Yet situations come up which require more precise rules than the ones given in High-Tech. The assumption there seems to be that the shooter has enough time to completely reload his weapon one shell at a time. This situation, in fact, rarely comes up in my games. If someone has time to do that, I'm usually not tracking time in 1-second turns anyway. The more usual situation is one of: GM: "Awright, your two blasts drop the second Godless Killing Machine and he goes down snarling in pain. From the rustling behind you it's likely that there is something prowling around there and you can see what appears to be an even larger beast behind the hedge 20 yards away. You've got a shot if you want, but it's in cover." Shotgun Pete: "Nah, I don't take the shot. Don't wanna be caught with a dry long arm and have to rely on a dinky pistol against these things. I guess I've got at least a second or two of grace before the next one reaches me, even if they run all out. How many shells can I top up with in that time?" And you've given me valuable guidelines to how to adjudicate that. For one, that Double-Loading can be adapted to loading shotguns with internal magazines. Second, that readying more than one shell at a time is possible (though I still have to make up my mind about rules for precisely how many and what checks I require for it). Now if I just had an idea what sidesaddle shellholders do in comparison with keeping the shells in a pouch at the belt and I'd be a happy man.
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02-09-2010, 04:55 AM | #43 |
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Near the Heart of the Valley, Oregon country
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Re: Tactical reloads of shotguns
[Dips in for a quick break from writing manuscripts, and finds a pot to stir]
I have difficulty imagining the USAS12 being deployed in Iraq beyond very small and quite informal numbers. Perhaps being lended by PMCs or even Iraqis themselves as a lark, but not an official Pentagon program! Any sanctioned small arms program fielded in the Gulf would be reported in Marine Times and Janes Information Group at least, since the USMC doesn't keep procurement of infantry arms a secret. This stuff gets in the AP news too. That pretty much settles it for me. They declared IAR candidates, the XM8 trials, the dismal performance of the C-Mag, the delight over M32, etc. etc. So I'd like to see the reports on USAS deployment. I know from experience and research that the Marines do indeed forge their own paths, as demonstrated by their trailblazing decision to adopt M240s as an infantry machine gun. Shotguns have an important CQB and security function as I've expressed in the past. But the Marines already have the M1014 for support, and the M26 MASS to play around with for door breaching. Otherwise DoD has been killing programs left and right because they've already spent the farm on Iraq and Afghanistan, and they want off-the shelf interims until LSAT produces results. (Or tanks out like ACR and SPIW and OICW and so on...). There are reasons why our boys still have M4s and '16s. While I freely dispute minutae with the ol' fella, Hans is correct. Tube-fed shottys make us happy, because that supports the operating environment, ergonomics, and economics. As those Pacific leathernecks knew. Those same Marines also started their island wars with the big drum fed Thompsons, too. By the end of the war it was stick mags because the drums were too noisy and too big and too fragile. As mentioned in the battle rifles and bulk thread, that tube-fed shotgun has a subjectively better profile for its duty than something with a magazine, a drum, or grips sticking out. If one needs more than 8 loaded rounds of 12 gauge in close-quarters, maybe its time to use an M4A1. Using USAS as a field support weapon sounds even more dubious, especially for MOUNT combat. Just use an M32 or a SAW. They exist and have greater tactical flexibility. I wouldn't turn my nose up at a shotgun for outdoors combat, but I'd be going with that 9-shot 590 before a USAS. However... Icelander may have his shotgun solution in Reb's suggestion of that particular auto gun. I was going to say that on issues of hair splitting inconsistencies in rules, that you just make those rules consistent without consulting us. But look at the unexpected gift it has given you! Godlless Evil, meet USAS 12. Remember those fixers! Ahh. I hope Cyberpunk is down the line just long enough for me to prove myself worthy of contributing to it, but not so far away that we all have to wait for them fixers. [Slinks back to his assignments].
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02-09-2010, 05:18 AM | #44 | |
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Near the Heart of the Valley, Oregon country
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Re: Tactical reloads of shotguns
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This is what GMs can do if minutia matters. If the PC is prone, assign a penalty to any worn pouch, if its between his body and the dirt. Make up the penalty as you see fit. If the PC uses a stock or reciever holder instead, just go with the default roll. If the guy is specifically trained to Fast Draw reload from his own weapon, go with that skill or give him a small bonus. As detailed as GURPS is, the GM has to wing a lot of this stuff. That's a tough admission to make from a psychotic control freak like me, but that's also part of the beauty of SJGI. Okay, now I'm back to work.
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I stick with mainstream physics right up to the point that it gets into decimal places, whereupon I gladly step back into liberal arts." --brianranzoni.com Bored with power cells? Try Paper Cells! |
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02-09-2010, 05:26 AM | #45 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Tactical reloads of shotguns
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The end result would be that you'd have gone through enormous trouble and probably spent upwards of $5,000 on a weapon that is heavier than shotguns you can legally buy in every sporting store and holds fewer rounds than some of them. The sole benefit would be the faster reloading time, with 2 seconds to switch mags on a successful Fast-Draw (Ammo) roll. But with a combination of Double-Loading, judicious use of Fast-Draw (Ammo) to ready more than one shell at a time and suchlike, it may be that this is only marginally faster than reloading their Mossberg 500 Persuaders. If HANS and safisher agree that a successful Double-Loading check would suffice to top up two shells in a Mossberg in one second*, I don't see the need for a detachable mag shotgun. *I've got a hunch that this should probably be at least at a penalty, for not having two barrels side-by-side and thus requiring them to be fed one after another in effectively the same time.
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02-09-2010, 05:34 AM | #46 | |||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Tactical reloads of shotguns
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If any Perks or Techniques for this exist, I think I'd allow this PC to have them. Quote:
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But I was thinking that good shell holders, at least, might give a +1 or +2 to Fast-Draw (Ammo) in the same way that good web gear does. And maybe, just maybe, a shell holder gives a +1 as an equipment bonus, before modifying for quality.
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02-09-2010, 09:21 AM | #47 |
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Re: Tactical reloads of shotguns
Sadly, "train how you fight; fight how you train" is important when we talk about training versus combat when we talk about BS rules. Agencies once were so successful at ingraining dumb behavior that officers made stupid mistakes in the field that they learned as administrative range rules. Look up the phrase "cruiser safe, cruiser ready." That said, it's never a good idea to in-grain a trigger pull as a firearm manipulation step unless it's to shoot the bad guy. That's a philosophy not all share, I realize. And, of course, I realize the things were discussing are not absolutes -- I am not the end-all and be-all of shotgun knowledge, even though I am a trainer and have extensive experience with the subject. Always can learn more.
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02-09-2010, 09:39 AM | #48 |
"Gimme 18 minutes . . ."
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Re: Tactical reloads of shotguns
Indeed. Reb may be former jarhead with umpteen years of experience in combat arms, but I know a) the USAS12 isn't an issue weapon, and b) shotguns were almost never the "preferred" weapon in any situation. They're a compromise weapon, they were certainly preferred by some folks in some situations, but it was incredibly rare for someone to take a shotgun when they could take a weapon with a higher rate of fire, higher ammo capacity, better handling characteristics, and longer range. They were used as trench guns in WWI, some folks took them into the brush in 'Nam, and they've always been issued to various people like MPs and such, but that doesn't mean anything close to a majority ever preferred them. Their ammo is too heavy, their range too short, and their sustainable rate of fire too low.
Last edited by Crakkerjakk; 02-09-2010 at 09:43 AM. |
02-09-2010, 08:53 PM | #49 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Tactical reloads of shotguns
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I ought to write up my idea of the modified Double Loading Technique and a modified Quick Reload Perk which is fractionally less cinematic. Of course, I also ought to be sleeping and not fiddling with rules I won't need until Sunday. Or at the very least preparing tomorrow's Fantasy game and not Sudany's Modern Action Secret Fantasy Horror. Will I never learn? ;)
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02-09-2010, 09:39 PM | #50 | |
"Gimme 18 minutes . . ."
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Re: Tactical reloads of shotguns
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I was talking about the real world, fool that I am. A shotgun will never compare to a SAW for being able to keep an area suppressed. Most likely not. We only learn what we want to, not what we should. |
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gun-fu, guns, high-tech, reloading, shotguns |
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