Tactical reloads of shotguns

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by safisher

If it's already "at your finger tips," Icelander, it's READY. That reduces the time, bud.

"It takes one Ready maneuver to open the breech, one to remove the spent cartridge, one to retrieve a fresh cartridge, one to insert it, and one to close the breech."

If you are holding the cartridge in your hand, that's one less ready maneuver. Of course, that means you can't use that hand very well -- and it might require a DX roll, even at penalty as in other cases mentioned on p. HT80. No such thing as a free lunch.

This is how I'd interpret things too.

But under 'Internal Magazines' on HT p. 87, Fast-Draw (Ammo)* does not reduce the time by one second per shell or cartridge, as I'd expect, but instead provides a small bonus to the total time required. So you can't use the rules for Readying two shells at the same time unchanged in conjuction with those rules.

*Which is usually at TL 6+ considered the skill of retrieving a magazine or cartridge as a free action and not as a Ready action.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by Icelander

And in the case of shotguns, Fast-Draw (Ammo) actually does not knock off a second, it knocks of 1/3 of a second.

"Internal magazine. For weapons with loading gates – like many shotguns and lever-action rifles – it takes one Ready maneuver to retrieve each cartridge and one to insert it. A successful Fast-Draw (Ammo) roll reduces this time by a second for every three cartridges or fraction thereof."

If you already hold three shells in your hand and then reload, it takes two seconds to load all three with a Fast-Draw roll, or three seconds without the roll.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Green-Neck

Icelander: It sounds like your wondering if you can use the double-load technique to do something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3E5wtmWCk4
Am I on the right track?

Exactly.

I want to know how to use Fast-Draw (Ammo) to load a shotgun with an internal magazine really quickly, even if that takes penalties to the roll.

Yes, I could just use the Quick Reload Perk from Gun-Fu, but that's thoroughly cinematic. With that, it takes 1 second to load any weapon with an internal magazine up to its full capacity, whether that is a hunting legal shotgun with 2 shells in the magazine or a 17 shot Winchester lever action.

I can't even imagine how anyone would load a Winchester '73 with seventeen cartridges in one second.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by safisher

"Internal magazine. For weapons with loading gates – like many shotguns and lever-action rifles – it takes one Ready maneuver to retrieve each cartridge and one to insert it. A successful Fast-Draw (Ammo) roll reduces this time by a second for every three cartridges or fraction thereof."

If you already hold three shells in your hand and then reload, it takes two seconds to load all three with a Fast-Draw roll, or three seconds without the roll.

Okay, that sounds good to me.

So would it be allowable to use Fast-Draw (Ammo) at -6 to draw four shells at once and then proceed immediately to loading with the shells in your hand? Meaning that with a successful roll, you might load them all in three (two?) seconds?

Or if that's double-dipping, what about just using Ready to retrieve a handful of shells before beginning to load the gun? It seems that this would nearly always be faster than using the time given on p. 87.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Which I find rather strange, especially considering that in the Basic Set, Fast-Draw (Ammo) is stated to 'at minimum, reduce loading time by 1 second' or something to that effect.

Er, "a successful roll always shaves at least one second off the reload time" is exactly consistent with what you see in HT; in fact we are more generous in HT than what Basic Set would lead you to believe, given that the 3i for a 5 shot pump is 15 seconds, and with Fast-Draw it would be 10 seconds. You can do the same in HT in only 8 seconds, if loading one shell at a time.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Or if that's double-dipping, what about just using Ready to retrieve a handful of shells before beginning to load the gun? It seems that this would nearly always be faster than using the time given on p. 87.

Yes, it would. That's what some shooters at the range or in sports competitions do. The one-at-time method (as in HT) is what a lot of cops are trained to do -- shoot one, load one. Filling the gun tactically as you move and find cover, etc. However, for a trained shooter, grabbing a handful and shoving them in is possible, and faster as you point out. It's problematic, though. You can't hold the gun with your hands full of shells, can't open doors, key a mic, etc. It's a tactical trade-off. This should be at DX penalty, or require DX rolls and so forth. Dropping stuff is a free action, so if you need to shoot, just drop your ammo and get both hands on the gun. Of course, then you may run out of ammo if you keep that up.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by safisher

Er, "a successful roll always shaves at least one second off the reload time" is exactly consistent with what you see in HT; in fact we are more generous in HT than what Basic Set would lead you to believe, given that the 3i for a 5 shot pump is 15 seconds, and with Fast-Draw it would be 10 seconds. You can do the same in HT in only 8 seconds, if loading one shell at a time.

Yes, but PCs will often be in combat time while reloading. And given that when they say 'I'm going to load 1 shell into my Mossberg', it takes 2 seconds or 1 with Fast-Draw (Ammo), it's strange that if they want to load 3 shells, it suddenly takes 6 seconds or 5 with Fast-Draw (Ammo).

It seems that a metagaming PC, or just one who expected to have to shoot each second and therefore declared his actions only one second in advance, would have a benefit. And could load his six shot gun in 6 seconds total, since he would always benefit from the Fast-Draw (Ammo) reduction per second.

It's just strange that the skill helps more if you game out the reloading sequence turn by turn than if you abstract it.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by safisher

Yes, it would. That's what some shooters at the range or in sports competitions do. The one-at-time method (as in HT) is what a lot of cops are trained to do -- shoot one, load one. Filling the gun tactically as you move and find cover, etc. However, for a trained shooter, grabbing a handful and shoving them in is possible, and faster as you point out. It's problematic, though. You can't hold the gun with your hands full of shells, can't open doors, key a mic, etc. It's a tactical trade-off. This should be at DX penalty, or require DX rolls and so forth. Dropping stuff is a free action, so if you need to shoot, just drop your ammo and get both hands on the gun. Of course, then you may run out of ammo if you keep that up.

Okay.

I guess I'm looking for rules on the DX penalty, DX rolls and/or Fast-Draw (Ammo) rolls here.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by Icelander

It's just strange that the skill helps more if you game out the reloading sequence turn by turn than if you abstract it.

Recall that "Opening and closing the action takes one Ready maneuver."
After reloading an empty gun, one has to work the action. Then (depending on the weapon and it's controls and your training) you have to ready the weapon. There's your eight seconds.

That's typical of the cradle-the-gun-with-off hand-and-load-with-your-strong hand method most hunters use. Yes, it's slower and not very smart in comparison to topping up one at a time. Tons of variations out there and one could hardly expect to see all of them in HT covered in loving detail.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by safisher

Recall that "Opening and closing the action takes one Ready maneuver."
After reloading an empty gun, one has to work the action. Then (depending on the weapon and it's controls and your training) you have to ready the weapon. There's your eight seconds.

The way I read the section, opening and closing the action in one Ready manuever was only required for weapons without loading gates. Both the text and the examples given appear to apply that only to bolt-action rifles and clip-loaded pistols and specifically excempt shotguns with loading gates from it.

If the intent was otherwise, I think the section could use a re-write.

Originally Posted by safisher

That's typical of the cradle-the-gun-with-off hand-and-load-with-your-strong hand method most hunters use. Yes, it's slower and not very smart in comparison to topping up one at a time. Tons of variations out there and one could hardly expect to see all of them in HT covered in loving detail.

But will Tactical Shooting do so?

Loving detail. ;)