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Old 12-13-2016, 04:06 AM   #1
Erling
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Default Wait maneuver issues

A is a guard. B, C, D and E are his enemies. A is standing behind a corner, ready to shoot on sight. B, C, D and E are going to rush around the corner and kill A.

Case #1:

A: Wait (overwatch the corner, shoot as soon as someone will present himself).
B: Do nothing.
C: Wait (when B will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
D: Wait (when B will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
E: Wait (when B will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).

A: Wait (overwatch the corner, shoot as soon as someone will present himself).
B: All-out Defense, go around the corner.

When A attacks B (Wait triggered), latter uses Dodge and Drop. C, D and E step around the corner and shoot A. Action continues:

C: Attack (shoot A).
D: Attack (shoot A).
E: Attack (shoot A).

Effectively C, D and E attack twice in a row: for Wait being triggered and then as a regular maneuver. Right?

Case #2:

A: Wait (overwatch the corner, shoot as soon as someone will present himself).
B: Wait (when E will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
C: Wait (when E will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
D: Wait (when E will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
E: wishes to abuse the rules and make B, C and D attack twice in a row as in case #1. Is it possible?
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Old 12-13-2016, 05:15 AM   #2
Nereidalbel
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Ellicott City, MD
Default Re: Wait maneuver issues

Wait is just deferring your action until later in the turn sequence. If A has the higher Move or whatever else you use to determine initiative, he still goes first when the next turn starts.
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Old 12-13-2016, 05:28 AM   #3
Gnome
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cambridge, MA
Default Re: Wait maneuver issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nereidalbel View Post
Wait is just deferring your action until later in the turn sequence. If A has the higher Move or whatever else you use to determine initiative, he still goes first when the next turn starts.
I think the whole point is that the Waits are all triggered on B's turn, after A's turn has passed. Then C, D and E get their turns after B's turn, even though they already acted on B's turn thanks to Wait. My group has run into these kinds of problems many times in play, and I've never come up with a satisfying solution. The problem can get even worse with mounted combatants who can times their Waits according to their own mount's movements and take advantage of this rules quirk repeatedly.
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Old 12-13-2016, 05:31 AM   #4
Nereidalbel
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Ellicott City, MD
Default Re: Wait maneuver issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
I think the whole point is that the Waits are all triggered on B's turn, after A's turn has passed. Then C, D and E get their turns after B's turn, even though they already acted on B's turn thanks to Wait. My group has run into these kinds of problems many times in play, and I've never come up with a satisfying solution. The problem can get even worse with mounted combatants who can times their Waits according to their own mount's movements and take advantage of this rules quirk repeatedly.
Nope, they used Wait on Turn 1 so they could act out of order on Turn 2. Turn 3 is still A, then B, then C, then D, then E. No getting a free use of ATR out of Wait ;)
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Old 12-13-2016, 05:38 AM   #5
Captain Joy
 
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Heartland, U.S.A.
Default Re: Wait maneuver issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erling View Post
A is a guard. B, C, D and E are his enemies. A is standing behind a corner, ready to shoot on sight. B, C, D and E are going to rush around the corner and kill A.

Case #1:

A: Wait (overwatch the corner, shoot as soon as someone will present himself).
B: Do nothing.
C: Wait (when B will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
D: Wait (when B will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
E: Wait (when B will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).

A: Wait (overwatch the corner, shoot as soon as someone will present himself).
B: All-out Defense, go around the corner.

When A attacks B (Wait triggered), latter uses Dodge and Drop. C, D and E step around the corner and shoot A. Action continues:

C: Attack (shoot A).
D: Attack (shoot A).
E: Attack (shoot A).

Effectively C, D and E attack twice in a row: for Wait being triggered and then as a regular maneuver. Right?
Correct. All the attacks were triggered by B. After all those attacks are resolved, C, then D, then E choose new manuevers for their new turns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erling View Post
Case #2:

A: Wait (overwatch the corner, shoot as soon as someone will present himself).
B: Wait (when E will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
C: Wait (when E will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
D: Wait (when E will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
E: wishes to abuse the rules and make B, C and D attack twice in a row as in case #1. Is it possible?
No, it isn't possible. The attacks are triggered by E; that is when A, B, C, and D's waits are triggered. Affer those attacks are resolved, A chooses a new maneuver as it's now his turn again.

Last edited by Captain Joy; 12-13-2016 at 06:03 AM. Reason: "No, it isn't possible" changed from "Incorrect".
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Old 12-13-2016, 05:59 AM   #6
Erling
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Default Re: Wait maneuver issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Joy View Post
Incorrect.
I hope you meant "No, it isn't possible". Anyway, that's what I was curious about: manifestation of this rules quirk depends on turn order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
My group has run into these kinds of problems many times in play, and I've never come up with a satisfying solution.
Currently I tend to consider it a rule abuse. If B, C, D and E were NPCs, as a GM I would make С, D and E take attacking maneuvers, not Wait. B still can take All-out Defense, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nereidalbel View Post
Nope, they used Wait on Turn 1 so they could act out of order on Turn 2. Turn 3 is still A, then B, then C, then D, then E. No getting a free use of ATR out of Wait ;)
You see, if actual order of action is "AB BA BA" you can still claim that eventually everything will be OK and both sides will take actions one by one, but "AB BA" fraction can be a huge advantage for B.
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Old 12-13-2016, 06:01 AM   #7
Gnome
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cambridge, MA
Default Re: Wait maneuver issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nereidalbel View Post
Nope, they used Wait on Turn 1 so they could act out of order on Turn 2. Turn 3 is still A, then B, then C, then D, then E. No getting a free use of ATR out of Wait ;)
GURPS doesn't have a general concept of "turn" outside of any particular character's turn. In your language, the action they're taking on what you're calling "turn 2" is their "turn 1" action, and they still get a "turn 2" action as well. In other words, you always go when your Basic Speed comes up in the turn order, regardless of whether you've already acted during someone else's turn at some higher Basic Speed.
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Old 12-13-2016, 06:10 AM   #8
Nereidalbel
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Ellicott City, MD
Default Re: Wait maneuver issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
GURPS doesn't have a general concept of "turn" outside of any particular character's turn. In your language, the action they're taking on what you're calling "turn 2" is their "turn 1" action, and they still get a "turn 2" action as well. In other words, you always go when your Basic Speed comes up in the turn order, regardless of whether you've already acted during someone else's turn at some higher Basic Speed.
If your Wait is not triggered, it is the same thing as Do Nothing. So, Turn 1 is effectively Do Nothing for B, C, and D. They have chosen Do Nothing as their action, and that is that.
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Old 12-13-2016, 06:39 AM   #9
malloyd
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Default Re: Wait maneuver issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erling View Post

Effectively C, D and E attack twice in a row: for Wait being triggered and then as a regular maneuver. Right?
Right. A "wasted" his first turn waiting for something that didn't happen.
Edit: Erase the first A and B entries and look at the sequence again starting with C. Does it still look like a problem to you? Probably not, because you now perceive C as "going first" and the sequence follows your conditioning about stuff resetting for a "new turn".

Quote:
Case #2:

A: Wait (overwatch the corner, shoot as soon as someone will present himself).
B: Wait (when E will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
C: Wait (when E will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
D: Wait (when E will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
E: wishes to abuse the rules and make B, C and D attack twice in a row as in case #1. Is it possible?
Only if A cooperates. He could take Wait (After A clucks like a chicken, Dodge and Drop an imaginary attack) and that would happen if A obliges by clucking on his next turn.
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Last edited by malloyd; 12-13-2016 at 06:46 AM.
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Old 12-13-2016, 07:59 AM   #10
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Wait maneuver issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erling View Post
Effectively C, D and E attack twice in a row: for Wait being triggered and then as a regular maneuver. Right?
Correct. Note that, in exchange for possibly getting to attack twice in a row, they had to give up a turn. This is simply a problem of resolution, but "fixing" it is... messy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erling View Post
E: wishes to abuse the rules and make B, C and D attack twice in a row as in case #1. Is it possible?
If he somehow knows A is taking a Wait, and the details of the Wait, sure. I don't think there's any issue with a character opting to delay their point in the turn order if desired, so he simply has to state he goes after A's turn. Well, maybe - that sort of coordination is difficult, so probably calls for the Teamwork Perk or similar.
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